Add new Fanatics buttons

blackshadowshade commented 6 years ago

We've had some interest in having new Fanatics buttons for players on the new site, and I think it would be a great idea to make this work.

We need to discuss what guidelines are reasonable when we are vetting potential recipes.

Naturally, any button that triggers a bug will be deactivated (but potentially playable on a testing site) until the bug is fixed.

irilyth commented 6 years ago

This might have some overlap with #344 and #231.

AdmiralJota commented 6 years ago

A few thoughts, I guess:

I agree that it would be good to implement #344 before we roll into Fanatics full time. I'll post over on that one too, so we can start that discussion up again.
Do we want to have specific recipe guidelines guidelines on what is or isn't allowed, or do we want to base it off of the results of testing the buttons, or do we just want to go with the "I know it when I see it" plan for rejecting extremely unbalanced buttons, or do we just want to allow everything, or what?

Out of those options, I think I'd lean towards number two: base it off of the testing. Here are some possible guidelines we might consider:
- You need to pit your recipe against at least N (20?) other buttons that are deemed fair (TL? Win ratio between 40%-60%?).
- At least N/2 of those games have to have your opponent playing as your new recipe.
- Your new recipe's win rate in those games has to be between X%-Y% (35%-65%?).
- If we think you're intentionally trying to game the results we'll auto-reject it.
Also, given that we don't have player mail yet, what process do we want for people actually submitting their new Fanatic recipes that they're ready to have approved? Post to a special forum thread? It seems like they shouldn't be obligated to sign up for a GitHub account just to request their Fanatic.

blackshadowshade commented 6 years ago

Regarding win rate, is there a case for retiring old Fanatics at the same time as enabling new Fanatics?

Also, people should certainly be able to submit their new Fanatics recipes on a special forum thread. However, the specific forum thread might end up being temporary, since we might set this up on a dev site devoted to testing Fanatics.

irilyth commented 6 years ago

Why would we want to retire existing Fanatics?

blackshadowshade commented 6 years ago

After thinking a little more about this, once we start flagging 'fair' and 'unfair' buttons (#1211), it isn't actually necessary to retire broken buttons.

irilyth commented 6 years ago

I don't think it's particularly necessary to retire "broken" buttons at all, but if we want to, I don't think we particularly need to create new buttons to replace them in any case. :^)

dwvanstone commented 6 years ago

I think "broken" buttons can be fun (especially against each other or under the correct circumstances), but there should be a way to flag this set of buttons so they don't show up in random v. random games/tournaments. I like #1211's concept of flagging buttons as 'fair'. But what if I have a fun idea for a button that turns out to not be 'fair'? If it's a fun idea why not allow it come onto the site but not marked as 'fair'?

irilyth commented 6 years ago

Yep, that sounds good to me. If you want lots of people to play your button idea, maybe you'd like to try to tune it to make it more fair, on the theory that "random vs random, fair buttons only" will be a popular way people start games, but I don't see anything wrong with people making overpowered or underpowered buttons, as long as they know what they're doing.

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

I'd like to try to make this happen with a timeline of January 2020. I'm happy to be a point person to help people get their fanatics onto the site.

Some questions:

Should future fanatics be in a single set called "New Fanatics" which gets added to as people comeup with new fanatics? Or should they be released as sets such as "2020 Fanatics", "2022 Fanatics", etc. as if they were promo sets?
Can any player make a Fanatic, or should they have played a certain # of games (1000? 500?)

I'm not too concerned myself about people adding odd buttons that don't fall into 40-60% win percentage, but I think allowing dev's to veto a button is fine. (Such as offensive art or description.) (I personally hate buttons that always end up in ties when played against themselves, such as Dead Guy vs. Dead Guy.)

AdmiralJota commented 5 years ago

After thinking about it, I kinda like the idea of doing the sets per year. It makes them more manageable. I don't suppose we have a database flag to indicate if a set is a Fanatics set? If not, it might not hurt. Then later on, if we wanted to implement things like optionally filtering them out of random button selection, we could.
I'd have a minimum, since A) I don't think we want drive-by newbies creating buttons and then vanishing, and B) it would be nice if people had a good feel for how the game worked before they started creating new recipes on the site.
I'm fine with buttons that are a bit unbalanced provided that they're still reasonably playable. E.g., a button with five odd T&S dice would be unbalanced but still sometimes worth playing. But a button with thirty one-sided T&S dice would not.

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

I'd have a minimum, since A) I don't think we want drive-by newbies creating buttons and then vanishing, and B) it would be nice if people had a good feel for how the game worked before they started creating new recipes on the site.

Agreed. We need to pick a number before I can announce this on the live site.

Here are some current players and the # of completed games they've had:

Hubbub: 995 RoxySheriffson: 1356 alwayslurking: 1340 Nesman64: 48 jimmosk: 2175 Matt: 1406 shavenjesus: 481 Scipio: 2368 tasha: 4838 AnnoDomoni: 6586 Atwitmyer: 205 Blargh: 3015 KermitTheBear: 253 Gizgo: 828 Patches: 449 PoshFrosh: 527

I feel that some of these folks who've been around a long time should be able to become a fanatic. I'm going to propose 500 games as the cutoff to become a fanatic. (And since, hopefully, this will happen each year it can be a goal for people to complete.)

Thoughts?

CarltonN commented 5 years ago

makes me sorry that I took a vacation from Button men. lol. i had just over a thousand on the old site. but no worries Ill get there again. btw what is the addy for the dev site? Carlton Noles

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 11:09 AM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

I'd have a minimum, since A) I don't think we want drive-by newbies creating buttons and then vanishing, and B) it would be nice if people had a good feel for how the game worked before they started creating new recipes on the site.

Agreed. We need to pick a number before I can announce this on the live site.

Here are some current players and the # of completed games they've had:

Hubbub: 995 RoxySheriffson: 1356 alwayslurking: 1340 Nesman64: 48 jimmosk: 2175 Matt: 1406 shavenjesus: 481 Scipio: 2368 tasha: 4838 AnnoDomoni: 6586 Atwitmyer: 205 Blargh: 3015 KermitTheBear: 253 Gizgo: 828 Patches: 449 PoshFrosh: 527

I feel that some of these folks who've been around a long time should be able to become a fanatic. I'm going to propose 500 games as the cutoff to become a fanatic. (And since, hopefully, this will happen each year it can be a goal for people to complete.)

Thoughts?

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dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

btw what is the addy for the dev site?

For this (testing out recipes) it's

http://transient.dev.buttonweavers.com/ui/

When you create a game you can select "Custom Recipe" and try a new recipe!

CarltonN commented 5 years ago

that was the plan! Carlton Noles

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 1:23 PM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

btw what is the addy for the dev site?

For right now it's

http://transient.dev.buttonweavers.com/ui/

When you create a game you can select "Custom Recipe" and try a new recipe!

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CarltonN commented 5 years ago

upon attemping to login Login failed - username or password invalid, or email address has not been verified.

and my email addy is already in the system Carlton Noles

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 1:27 PM Carlton Noles carlton.noles@gmail.com wrote:

that was the plan! Carlton Noles

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 1:23 PM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

btw what is the addy for the dev site?

For right now it's

http://transient.dev.buttonweavers.com/ui/

When you create a game you can select "Custom Recipe" and try a new recipe!

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dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

and my email addy is already in the system

You may have to create a new account on this system. (It's separate from the production system.)

CarltonN commented 5 years ago

yea i tried it said i was already in the system. i think i had creatrd one a while back but i dont know my credentials. doh! Carlton Noles

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 2:25 PM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

and my email addy is already in the system

You may have to create a new account on this sytem. (It's separate from the production system.)

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AdmiralJota commented 5 years ago

Do we remember how many games you needed on the old site? I wouldn't make it any less than that.

And speaking of the old site: I assume people would normally only get one Fanatic. But would fanatics that carried over from the old site count against that, or would people who had classic fanatics get to have a new one as well?

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

Do we remember how many games you needed on the old site? I wouldn't make it any less than that.

Let me ask some old-timers!

And speaking of the old site: I assume people would normally only get one Fanatic. But would fanatics that carried over from the old site count against that, or would people who had classic fanatics get to have a new one as well?

I think if people already have a classic fanatic they don't get a new fanatic. (It doesn't seem fair to let people have two fanatics.) I could be persuaded otherwise, but that's my gut feeling.

CarltonN commented 5 years ago

my memory vault said it was 1000.i recall amking the number and was waiting for my Fanatic when the old site shut down. Carlton Noles

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:04 PM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

Do we remember how many games you needed on the old site? I wouldn't make it any less than that.

Let me ask some old-timers!

And speaking of the old site: I assume people would normally only get one Fanatic. But would fanatics that carried over from the old site count against that, or would people who had classic fanatics get to have a new one as well?

I think if people already have a classic fanatic they don't get a new fanatic. (It doesn't seem fair to let people have two fanatics.) I could be persuaded otherwise, but that's my gut feeling.

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dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

Should current players who made 1000 games on the old site be able to make Fanatics on this new site?

yea i tried it said i was already in the system. i think i had creatrd one a while back but i dont know my credentials. doh!

Also, why don't you write to "help@buttonweavers.com" about resetting your password on the transient site? (I don't know how to do it.)

CarltonN commented 5 years ago

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:59 PM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

Should current players who made 1000 games on the old site be able to make Fanatics on this new site?

For Myself, I am content to wait for '500' I'm close enough.

yea i tried it said i was already in the system. i think i had creatrd one a while back but i dont know my credentials. doh!

Also, why don't you write to "help@buttonweavers.com" about resetting your password on the transient site? (I don't know how to do it.)

i remembered my password. though now I have another issue. games i create with Nala on the devsite just sit there and games I join with anyone else disappear. kinda hard to test a recipe. have you run into this? If not im off to the handy dandy help mail.

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

i remembered my password. though now I have another issue. games i create with Nala on the devsite just sit there and games I join with anyone else disappear. kinda hard to test a recipe. have you run into this? If not im off to the handy dandy help mail.

Nala isn't running on that site. What I do (and what I'll recommend to others when I write about this on the forum) is create a second test user on the transient site and open two separate browsers with one logged into each.

CarltonN commented 5 years ago

I though that might be the case with Nala. I also considered it possible that there were multiple version of the same user when I saw users 'dwtest' and 'dwtest2' (or something like that) which I presumed to be yours. Thanks I'll try that.

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 7:40 AM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

i remembered my password. though now I have another issue. games i create with Nala on the devsite just sit there and games I join with anyone else disappear. kinda hard to test a recipe. have you run into this? If not im off to the handy dandy help mail.

Nala isn't running on that site. What I do (and what I'll recommend to others when I write about this on the forum) is create a second test user on the transient site and open two separate browsers with one logged into each.

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irilyth commented 5 years ago

For the testing that DVS is proposing here, it might make sense to line up some volunteers to play a bunch of test games. Or enable Nala. :^ )

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

Is the transient.dev.buttonweavers.com site going to be stable? Is it meant for this kind of testing?

irilyth commented 5 years ago

Heh, I was just thinking about that. :^ ) We have a handful of temporary names that we use for temporary sites, so that things like browser extensions that remember passwords can remember them and reuse them between sites. There's nothing about the name that makes it temporary; we can keep it around for six months, or indefinitely, if we want.

If we think we might want a long-term site for testing new button recipes, though, maybe we should give it a more permanent name?

cgolubi1 commented 5 years ago

I think it'd be a good idea to setup a dedicated site for testing fanatics and/or testing button recipes overall. Shadowshade had asked me to prioritize a different issue in the short-term (and i haven't had a lot of buttonmen time), but i should get back to figuring out how to test the custom recipes pull. If we can get it integrated into the code base (which, warning, is going to take some doing), that'll give us more options.

But i wonder if we should setup a fanatics2020 dev site for now, for this particular use case.

irilyth commented 5 years ago

Do we want a site specific for fanatics2020, or a general recipe-testing dev site?

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

Do we want a site specific for fanatics2020, or a general recipe-testing dev site?

I think a general recipe-testing dev site, but one which is stable for the three months of a year.

I've been asking some long-timers about how many games players had to play in the past before getting to make a fanatic button and they didn't know. I heard "1000" thrown out there. I think "500" is good enough. Let me know by Aug. 15 if anyone disagrees so I can start letting people know about the plan!

irilyth commented 5 years ago

I sort of had in mind that it was something weirdly low on the old site, like 100. :^ ) I think 500 here sounds fine.

Another thing we could do is set it to a number of people rather than a number of games, and just offer the opportunity to the ten players who have played the most games so far that year. I suppose that would leave out people who have been around for a long time, who will eventually hit 500 games, but not in a single year.

I don't have strong feelings about this, and also don't know for sure what would be the most fun. Do we want this to be something that's pretty easy to get if you stick around long enough, with fairly predictable criteria, so someone can say "well, at the rate I play, I'll get to 500 in another 18 months, so yay, I'll get to make a Fanatic in 2022" or whatever? Or something where there's a competitive element, so people would say "I'm trying hard to play a lot of games so I can qualify for a Fanatic this year!", and some people might try and come up short?

blackshadowshade commented 5 years ago

I'm good with 500. I think that anyone developing a Fanatic should have had a good feel for most of the existing skills, and for that, I think that 100 is probably too few.

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

I don't have strong feelings about this, and also don't know for sure what would be the most fun.

I think keeping it simple (500 games) would be fun. People like making buttons. This gives them a chance to do so.

Who's the owner of Nala? Perhaps I can suggest that Nala could have a fanatic button!

AdmiralJota commented 5 years ago

I am! And there is a weird (probably unbalanced) button recipe that I was thinking I'd like to try out some day; this would probably be the perfect opportunity for it.

(Also, I agree with Fanatics being a rite of passage rather than a contested award.)

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

What are the website requirements for artwork for new buttons?

I've heard that a 150x150 PNG file is the requirement but I'd like that confirmed before I put anything on the website thread.

dwvanstone commented 5 years ago

I notice that other buttons are 150x150 PNG files, so I'm going to take that as sufficient.

Is there a statement I can give to users about not using copyrighted images? Or is that enough of a statement? (Don't use copyrighted images!)

CarltonN commented 5 years ago

Darn I think i have to change mine now. :{)} Carlton Noles

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 11:41 AM dwvanstone notifications@github.com wrote:

I notice that other buttons are 150x150 PNG files, so I'm going to take that as sufficient.

Is there a statement I can give to users about not using copyrighted images? Or is that enough of a statement? (Don't use copyrighted images!)

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AdmiralJota commented 5 years ago

I'd suggest adding "without permission" to that admonition.

dwvanstone commented 4 years ago

If I put the 6-12 fanatics in this thread (giving name, stats, flavor text, and 150x150 PNGs) in early 2020, could a kind dev person be willing to create a "2020 Fanatics" set with those buttons? Or should I spend some time learning how to add a new set as a dev? Should I make a new thread specifically for "2020 Fanatics"?

blackshadowshade commented 4 years ago

Add them here, and I'll deal with the details.

dwvanstone commented 4 years ago

Here are the nine formulas:

jl8e - f(7) f(7) p(16) (16) ^#(R,R) Nala (being created by Jota) - Mkw(1) Mk(1) Mk(3) Mk(9) Mk(27) tavella - (5)t^ (23)v# (19)I (6)I^ (7)! AnnoDomini - (W) (4) (R) s(4) (W) devious - dv(S) (16) (16) pqr(S,S) Jm`(0) Jm`(0) Jm`(0) Blargh - Hop(4) hop(10) Mh(8) Mf(8) MF(13) Nonce Equitaur - (S) (3)q (U)It (U) (R)!
blackshadowshade - mkht(T)! Bt(T)& `fg(4) bHt^(0/10) F%(1,10) rbHt^(0/10) rnDt^(1,8) jimmosk - (4) %(8) g(12) JIMmo(S) k(2)

Here are the descriptions for most of the fanatics:

Tavella: Tavella enjoys cooking, reading, and of course... beating people up.

Nala: "nobody ever laughs at my puns. i guess because it's not a great button. a little past half way home got caught in the rising dawn after long and fruitless debates. they handed over a tightly wrapped scroll, bowed and left again, without saying a word. funny that he now did. maybe his partner asked him to stand up to scrutiny. you are better than one chance in 256 of that happening are only 1/40. i thought about going smaller with my y swing, but i think you're doing quite well for you anyway" -Nala

devious: Devious likes to play board games, grow flowers, listen to music, and wander in a twisty maze of passages, all alike, in order to beat people up.

jl8e: jl8e is an itinerant baker, coder, and game designer who is probably trapped under a very floofy cat right this moment. He likes 7-sided dice, Oddish, pineapple on pizza, and beating people up.

AnnoDomini: AnnoDomini likes cycling, inventing new games, creating his own buttons and beating people up.

Nonce Equitaur: Nonce Equitaur enjoys non sequiturs, puns, probability theory, symmetry groups, breaking into geodesic homes, and beating people up.

Jimmosk: Jimmosk solves puzzles, sings rounds, and avoids games that feature dice – with one significant exception.

Blargh: Blargh likes to sail the seven seas, raiding merchants, digging up treasure, keelhauling landlubbers, frequenting taverns, and beating people up. Argh!

I've attached the graphics I have. AnnoDomini Blargh devious Jimmosk Nala Nonce tavella

Should I ask for Nonce to resubmit with transparent background instead of black?

TheOrgg commented 4 years ago

Well, I'm not as good at this by far as the original Fanatics generic logo creator, but I gave it a garish shot. The Fanatics logo feels 50's inspired, so I went with a 70's inspired design, but with a black background instead of psychedellia oil flow (as I couldn't figure out how to get that 'acid backdrop' without screencapping it)

Fanatics2020

TheOrgg commented 4 years ago

Nonce

Also, here's a transparent Nonce.

dwvanstone commented 4 years ago

Could you reduce the transparent Nonce to 150x150?

TheOrgg commented 4 years ago

smallnonce

TheOrgg commented 4 years ago

Nonce Fixed the name for the small one.

EDIT: Made it small. Ooops. smallnonce

blackshadowshade commented 4 years ago

For interest, my almost complete button image is this:

Fanatic2020_bss

Kaori is just fixing the "!", which got zapped by the reduction to 150 x 150 px.

blackshadowshade commented 4 years ago

Also, I love the variety in the Fanatics images and recipes! Looking forward to playing them all!

TheOrgg commented 4 years ago

I hope everyone kept larger versions of these and will send them to me at theorgg@hotmail.com for use on the BM set wiki.

dwvanstone commented 4 years ago

A correction to jimmosk's button:

Jimmosk_fanatic_button_final_colored_150

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