Baritone Monetization Strategy

[c0nn3r]

Per a conversation with @leijurv and @nacgarg on Telegram. This is meant to summarize our general ideas and provide a few action items for next steps for our goals.

Sparking this issue were two events: Baritone has been trailing FAR behind Future (@0-x-2-2 🙄) in recurring revenue (Baritone has only received a few one time donations) and @leijurv has disappointingly taken a internship instead of working on Baritone full-time during the summer. This is despite Baritone being a far more powerful tool than Impact or Future. @ZeroMemes has also opted not to share Impact donations with @leijurv. The goal of this issue is to lay the groundwork for a sustainable revenue model for Baritone - allowing full-time development for at least one developer. Potential ideas discussed are laid out below:

🌟 Baritone Premium ™

We could gate a few Baritone features behind a recurrent membership fee and introduce a so called "Baritone Premium". A few ideas for what features could be moved to the premium version are below:

• Parkour Functionality
• Path Color Customization
• Custom Cape
• Builder (more on this later)
• Auto farmer
• Freecam Pathing
• Tunneling / Clearing Areas

🏃 Charging per a Block Traversed

Users would have a limited number of blocks they could traverse using the path finding functionality per a month before they would be asked to pay a few cents for each 100 blocks walked. @leijurv seemed very supportive per our Telegram conversation.

⚡️ Surge Pricing

Building off of the idea to charge per a path, we also discussed dynamically pricing different paths (2B2T is almost exclusively our target market here). If you wanted to move along the nether highway for instance - that would cost more based on how popular that destination was among the player base. Pricing would also be more expensive based on the time of day that path was popular during.

💰 Market-based Builder

Baritone's builder functionality is about to receive a few much needed upgrades (being able to use chests as a source of items, in-game previews to name a few), one option is just gating these behind premium - another is having players pay per a build. Each block placed would be priced based on its blocks popularity within Baritone built structures. This would cause items such as wool blocks to have a higher price than say cactus. Besides promoting diversity within player creations, this would also provide a marketplace where players could select from a library of previous structures that they could then pay to build in game.

🥇 Next steps

@nacgarg has offered to write the backend and @c0nn3r offered to do both the web frontend and surge pricing strategy.

@leijurv mentioned needing to focus on DRM to prevent illegitimate usage of premium features and pathing.

We look forward to improving Baritone's sustainable development. 👍

@c0nn3r, @nacgarg and @leijurv

[0-x-2-2]

MineBot is also not licensed and Baritone still uses MineBot code therefor there is a lot of ways to ban old versions.

[MrAnima]

@c0nn3r Would you be legally allowed to remotely remove files from a computer? Without explicit consent during installation, many jurisdictions would consider that as unauthorized intrusion, and thus, hacking.

And regarding the DRM, there's no way you will be able to make it a thing if the code remains open source. There will always be a way to bypass it. If I were you, I would implement the paid features separately in their own repo and bundle everything together with each release (think Visual Studio Code, except that only analytics stuff are added). This way, people who build baritone from source wouldn't have access to the paid features anyways, but baritone stays open source.

[jasoryeh]

psst. optional ads in minecraft to help out whoever is developing this :). those with kind hearts will opt into the version with ads and passively generate revenue for him.

edit: once something's source is released there's no going back.

other options: patreon, paypal dono link, cosmetics

[NateKomodo]

Try GitHub sponsorships or whatever. I know many people (including myself) who would just fork this repo and make the premium features themselves, if they were to be paywalled. Paywalls are an enemy of the open source mentality.

[0-x-2-2]

edit: once something's source is released there's no going back.

what the fuck is copyright???

[0-x-2-2]

@c0nn3r Would you be legally allowed to remotely remove files from a computer? Without explicit consent during installation, many jurisdictions would consider that as unauthorized intrusion, and thus, hacking. And regarding the DRM, there's no way you will be able to make it a thing if the code remains open source. There will always be a way to bypass it.

Removing DRM and having tools that can remove DRM is more illegal than a program self deleting from your machine.

[MrAnima]

@0-x-2-2

what the fuck is copyright???

If the code was already open sourced, it's too late

Removing DRM and having tools that can remove DRM is more illegal than a program self deleting from your machine.

If the code is open source, obviously not. Removing stuff from my computer without consent however, is completely illegal

[0-x-2-2]

If the code was already open sourced, it's too late

You clearly have no idea how copyright works. I already explained a few ways that Baritone can be made illegal with support of leijurvs friends like @c0nn3r

If the code is open source, obviously not. Removing stuff from my computer without consent however, is completely illegal

📸

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention

[Viosmic]

I really enjoy the idea of people being able to support the dev and the obvious hard work that has been put into Baritone. I think that it's really a cool project too. However, I have to agree with what another user said about making donating more visible. I couldn't find anywhere that someone could donate at all when I looked around. Perhaps adding more "Donate to support Baritone" in places that Baritone is already publicized would be great, because no one can give money if they don't know where to. I think that when you say "help" or "config" in the chat to pull up that menu, a "Support Baritone by clicking here --> (link)" or a "Keep Baritone available to be worked on here --> (link)" would be great, because that's somewhere where everyone would have to see it alongside the instructions here on GitHub, right? If the donations from that aren't enough, then limiting features to premium like aforementioned cosmetics or more fancy features would totally do well. But I don't think a "pay for your gas" type of model would do very well at all, and a lot of people would be seriously unhappy with that kind of system, I bet. Another idea is making it so that "Premium" users can get new versions of Baritone before others and can contribute ideas that move higher up in the priority-queue. Good luck!

[0-x-2-2]

This is clearly a btc address for donations.

[Viosmic]

This is clearly a btc address for donations.

I've never seen anyone that uses that before, most of the people I know use Patreon or a site of the sort, do you know how many people use that one compared by chance? I didn't know what it was, I think the other dude that said something similar to me didn't see it, it doesn't say "donate" or "donation" anywhere, plus the fact that it's literally nowhere else aside from there and doesn't clearly state what it is.

[c0nn3r]

A quote that comes to mind when reading this thread is “Doing nothing for others is the undoing of ourselves.” When you use Baritone it may think you have a right to @leijurv 's work. This is not the case, @leijurv generously allows you to use Baritone without payment, but he is well within his rights to restrict access to features in attempt to generate revenue. Personally, I feel saddened @leijurv needs to live in a one bedroom apartment persisting on ramen and his workplace's La Croix after creating a source of value for so many people (I shipped him lemons after he got scurvy from a lack of vitamin C 🙁).

@MrAnima please make yourself familiar with the Sony BMG copy protection case. We are well within our rights to remove Baritone Premium™ features that you have added without our consent. If you don't like these terms, you are welcome to use a different Minecraft pathfinder. @leijurv has extensive experience implementing DRM for the Impact client and if need be will do so to elements of the Baritone source. (If people are already talking about ideas to get Baritone Premium™, this seems necessary. As @ILikeTrains27 points out, we need to remove copies of Baritone out in the wild by remotely deleting Baritone source from user's computer and this is exactly what we plan to do.

Good job @0-x-2-2 educating them on anti circumvention laws, thank for your help.

[averycowan]

I never gave permission for @leijurv to steal the Minebot source and resell or publish it as Baritone. When are the @HowardStark and I getting our cut of the premium revenue in exchange for taking our code and slapping on a free license?

[ZeroMemes]

You committed to toolset, thus agreeing to the license of the project. https://github.com/cabaletta/baritone/commit/9a1aecc00272b8aab8a1c64f8dd32110e6888dff @averycowan

[averycowan]

That's not at all how it works @ZeroMemes. I agreed allow the licenses to apply to 9a1aecc. Despite your misconceptions, making a toolset fix doesn't magically become an endorsement of the project. I fixed a bug in some code I caused and didn't want out there. The fix being subject to the license is just that and nothing else.

[JaminPRose]

I mostly ignored this thread, and I'm not a coder. Hell, I don't even use Baritone, I'm just interested in this as a stepping stone towards a proper, true AI that may one day be able to function as we do within the confines of minecraft. I want this to allow for study social development, potential to restructure the game's basecode from within the game it's self, potential governmental development, in world AI evolution, and much more. I'm going to unfollow this damn thread, but before I do I have to say, I AM ASHAMED, that you cannot come to the table like reasonable adults and work this out at the very least, if not work together to make Baritone better. Github is meant to allow colaberation, and sharing of code for innovation, not bickering.

[averycowan]

@JaminPRose,

@leijurv and I just spoke on telegram right now and you're right. We've let this get out of hand and need to focus on what the possibilities for the future are. We'd be happy to encourage you to see what you can do with Baritone (fka Minebot) and want to support both the global open source community and the MineCraft community. So, when the time comes, we'd like to offer you a one year's premium subscription for free and 10,000 BariBucks to get you started with your research on true AI.

[averycowan]

I've been getting some questions by PM so to answer everyone at once I'm putting it here. @leijurv, @ c0nn3r and I are still resolving the specifics but this is what we have so far.

• The premium membership will NOT be needed to use baritone. Only features such as boundries, capes, and roving will need premium access
• 1 BariBuck will equal one baritone pathfinding calculation of up to 200 blocks in length
• We have no information to share about pricing

[Viosmic]

Honestly that kind of model is probably the one that's the least friendly to the people that use Baritone right now, I'm just kind of surprised you guys aren't trying a more donation-based platform first when one doesn't even exist right now.. oh well, outta even my potential influence zone now

[c0nn3r]

Not to fear @viosmic! As a gesture of good faith, every comment on this issue so far will get the author 1 baribuck completely free! 😃

[JaminPRose]

@averycowan I appreciate it, and I am glad that this situation is being resolved, that way we can get back to what matters. It will likely be some time, but Baritone (AFK Minebot) will certainly be helpful and I look forward to seeing what else is developed for it along the way.

[ThebesAndSound]

if you start monetising then you could get lazy from the profits and end up drinking cocktails in the sun like @0-x-2-2 neglecting even to add simple integrations for baritone to future!

[0-x-2-2]

Good job @0-x-2-2 educating them on anti circumvention laws, thank for your help.

No problem @c0nn3r!

if you start monetising then you could get lazy from the profits and end up drinking cocktails in the sun like @0-x-2-2 neglecting even to add simple integrations for baritone to future!

If I don't add """"simple"""" Baritone integration I don't need to donate to the leijurv "lemon a day to keep the scurvy away fund" instead he will need to monetize baritone instead so he can stop eating only fruit loops (Turns out fruit loops don't have any fruit 😭).

[H3wastooshort]

WTF is with your grammar?!

[0-x-2-2]

WTF is with ur grammar?!

"ur" is not a valid word in this context.

[bddvlpr]

📸

[0-x-2-2]

@leijurv is even having a hard time affording fruit loops so last week he had to go with gluten-free plain cheerios.

[H3wastooshort]

THATS BAD!🤢

[H3wastooshort]

Thaugt about Patreon or sth?

[bddvlpr]

Also your site's css made me blind.

[Viosmic]

I think I'm going to say one last thing on this entire situation, and if I sound pessimistic, please forgive me, I'm not sure how to say this without sounding like a bit of a downer. I feel really bad for lejiurv, and I don't think that anyone should have to live that way, much less someone that's creating something as great as Baritone. I've been using Baritone for a little bit myself, and Baritone absolutely solves every reason that I haven't played Minecraft in months. I really hate the monotony of mining, but don't particularly like creative mode either. I hate going long distances and then having to traipse home thousands of blocks, even if I have a mount to get there faster. Baritone does both of these things with amazing finesse, and I'd be lying if I said that Baritone wasn't the single most useful Minecraft mod/tool/bot that I've ever seen. But because of the nature of Baritone, I really don't think a "pay for your gas" kind of model is going to work well. Baritone is ran on the host's computer, so it's not like anyone would be paying for server costs, which is why people pay for gas for instance, you're paying for a resource that runs out the more you use it. Unless Baribucks are literally in the cents zone for purchase, I can't see many people being on board with the idea, either. Personally, I don't make much money if any sometimes, but I'd totally support this project just because of how epic it is and game-changing it is for me. But I don't use BTC, I can't use that ID that people keep providing. That's why before I suggested more venues to be able to donate and making the publicity of donating more known. I'm sure if there was a Patreon or a more accessible option like that, people would donate more, and then it's only a matter of how much more public Baritone becomes before more people donate. I know that I'm just a random on here, but that's my thoughts. I think that the majority of people browsing this issue and seeing Baritone overall love the project, and I doubt ANYONE wants to see the dev of such a great thing live in conditions like that. People tend to rally together when stuff like this comes up. And if they don't, I think then is the time that stuff needs to become seriously monetized in a drastic measure such as a "pay for your gas" model. But until then, I really do recommend making a more accessible donation option, publicizing a bit more on social media platforms to draw people in, and making a big deal out of it! Tell people that to continue Baritone and to avoid being forced to pay, that community members NEED to step up to keep this going. Have Baritone pop a message up in chat after it finishes a task or goes x amount of blocks "Hey, Baritone needs your help to continue being updated!" and then introduce that premium model you guys were talking about, with some lucrative features such as ideas being more considered by people with premium, or those cosmetic ideas other people were talking about, but the core of Baritone is what is going to draw people in and make them want to take part in something like this. Pathing, mining, helping people with the monotonous parts of Minecraft. Free draws people in, and then people with money either want the perks or they want to just support the dev. Anyways, I'm kind of rambling at this point, but please consider something like this. I really believe in this project and think it's something amazing. I hope you feel better lejiurv, and please, do your best to take care of yourself. If you're as great a person as you are a dev, then the world needs you to be alright. Thank you guys for reading, and I'll keep updated and try to reply to other comments if they're directed at me.

[elevenchars]

I honestly can't even tell if this is a joke or not but the way you guys have described monetizing the project is so hostile to users. I'm sure I (and many other users) would gladly donate to this project to keep it going, but I have no interest in a pay per use system for this mod, no matter the amount. Putting something like surge pricing a la ride sharing apps in a minecraft mod leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[BlueCyro]

I really sympathize with the lack of money, I really do. But monetizing baritone and locking already-available features (or worse, having a pay-per-block model!), is really distasteful, and I personally wouldn't use this if it became paid simply because I myself can't afford to spend money on every interesting thing that I see. Set up a patreon and pop a link into the mod, I'm sure people will donate. If this becomes paid, you know that it'll continually be cracked and redistributed, or people will write scripts to compile it themselves. (Unless you make it closed-source, which I would REALLY not advise doing.) Please don't make this paid.

[EmeraldSnorlax]

still waiting for that T2B2 reaction video

152

[bddvlpr]

@RileyGuy aight lets make it paid.

[BlueCyro]

I honestly can't even tell if this is a joke or not but the way you guys have described monetizing the project is so hostile to users. I'm sure I (and many other users) would gladly donate to this project to keep it going, but I have no interest in a pay per use system for this mod, no matter the amount. Putting something like surge pricing a la ride sharing apps in a minecraft mod leaves a bad taste in my mouth. @elevenchars

I couldn't have said it better myself, the options described for monetizing this thing (which would alienate most users anyways), are super anti-consumer. A patreon or donation link that pops up every now-and-again in-game would be much friendlier, and would actually make me want to hash out a few bucks when it's not demanded. If it becomes payment-compulsory, you know people are gonna just crack it and distribute it for free anyways no matter what.

[Fefect]

I honestly can't even tell if this is a joke or not but the way you guys have described monetizing the project is so hostile to users. I'm sure I (and many other users) would gladly donate to this project to keep it going, but I have no interest in a pay per use system for this mod, no matter the amount. Putting something like surge pricing a la ride sharing apps in a minecraft mod leaves a bad taste in my mouth. @elevenchars

I couldn't have said it better myself, the options described for monetizing this thing (which would alienate most users anyways), are super anti-consumer. A patreon or donation link that pops up every now-and-again in-game would be much friendlier, and would actually make me want to hash out a few bucks when it's not demanded. If it becomes payment-compulsory, you know people are gonna just crack it and distribute it for free anyways no matter what.

No, it has to be as agressive as possible. Constant pop-ups at random intervals, especially when nearby mobs. The bot spamming the chat saying that he did not pay for Baritone™ every single 15 seconds in public chat. The bot altering paths towards lava if the fee has not been paid.

[koraseeq]

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Free draws people being updated!" and I'd totally do recome seriously monetized in a drastic measure situation, and please forgive me, I'm going to work well. Baritone, I can't see many people donating long distance, you're paying if I sound pessimistic, please forgive me, I'm just a random on here, but that's my thoughts. I really hate going to say one last thing like that premium, or they want to be alright. Thank you guys were talking a more a dev of such as Baritone overally in the providing. Have Baritone overall love the project just because it. Unless Baribucks are a drastic measure such money if anyone pop a message up in the dev. Anyways, I'm kind of model you use BTC, I can't useful Minecraft in money if any solves ever server costs, which is why people keep this issue and if I have to donate more publicizing finesse, and I doubt ANYONE want to take paying for gas for you to avoid be paying this comes up. 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[EmeraldSnorlax]

@koraseeq all that time spent typing couldve been spent using your mommy's credit card to buy BariBucks™

[Hyeve-jrs]

This whole thing seems somewhat stupid to me. May I present my opinion?

First off, I have no freaking clue why you'd suggest a pay-as-you-go model. In this situation, that's just stupid. I can tell you now, if you implement that, you're going to push people away from baritone, not gain money from it. Few people will pay for a model like that, and other, most likely free, options will immediately start popping up. Hell, if you did that, I'd code my own baritone from scratch, and make it free. It's just not a good idea.

I appreciate you wanting to make money off of baritone, especially given leijurv's living conditions, and I fully agree - baritone is a amazing project, and you should totally make more money off of it. If I had the money, and the ease of access to donate, I would! And there's your main problem. You've repeatedly shown a BTC address, yet how many people would recognise that, let alone know what it's for?! As people have said, there's no indication of it being for donations at all, and the majority of people won't even know, or if they do know, realise, what it is! I had no freaking idea what it was, and I don't use BTC anyway, so I can't donate using it! Even for the people who use BTC, how many will notice it and understand what it's for? I'd say virtually none.

There's no easy way to donate - hell, I didn't even realise it was possible to donate! As people have been pointing out, you need to make it more obvious. Publicise better ways of donating, like patreon, even just a paypal address or something! Pick something that everyone can use, no matter what payment methods they use. And publicise it! Ingame popups, better documentation, explain why you need the money!

People aren't emotionless machines, if you explain stuff to them, they'll feel empathy, and equally, if you stick a pay-as-you-go system onto baritone, they'll feel robbed and dislike it.

Cosmetics, "premium", stuff like that, is a great idea! I'm sure tons of people would pay to get extra features, even if the extra features are highly niche or not hugely useful, or even just cosmetic. I'd pay for cosmetic/premium features.

However, a subscription service would probably discourage people - The reason people pay for subscriptions is usually because they get a lot of things all in one place, for a much cheaper price than buying each thing by itself. That's why services like netflix, amazon prime, music services, etc, work. Because they're getting everything that they want, all in one place, for a cheaper price. The other reason people pay for subscriptions is because they have no choice - this is generally the case for things like mobile data, internet, etc. You can only get it with a subscription (Pretty much). For baritone, as I said, that wouldn't be the case - people would very quickly code their own alternitives.

Anyway, thanks for reading my rant, hopefully it makes sense and you'll pay attention to it, if not, idfk what's going to happen to baritone, maybe I should start coding up my own version.

[BlueCyro]

@Drakye I agree, though I would say to stick to purely cosmetic changes to baritone if there must be some perk to paying, there are already too many things that lock features behind paywalls and I'm sure most people have had it with that kind of model as well - including me. cough EA

[bddvlpr]

I’m thinking more of going a ‘backdoor-ish’ way...

[BlueCyro]

I’m thinking more of going a ‘backdoor-ish’ way...

Nice try FBI.

[ghost]

couldnt the ardour approach be possible? pay for binaries but get source for free

[Viosmic]

I absolutely agree with Drakye, literally said everything I thought.

[BlueCyro]

Honestly though, I would seriously consider making the donation options much more visible and state that it would help immensely instead of just a single BTC link before you start considering mandatory payment as an option. It'd turn me off of this project in an instant and pretty much make it fall into the category of just another paid MC mod that very few people would use. It would inevitibly be cracked or alternative forks based on the current free version that mimic any new features afterwards would pop up anyways.

[jvyden]

45 833

213

cabaletta/baritone Code Issues 267 Pull requests 14 Projects 0 Wiki Security Insights Baritone Monetization Strategy #436 Open c0nn3r opened this issue on Jun 2 · 98 comments Assignees No one assigned Labels bug can't reproduce duplicate dclown_faceb enhancement help wanted invalid needs more info question wontfix Projects None yet Milestone No milestone Notifications Customize

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[ondrej008]

What?

[ghost]

MAke donationsa obvious. Seriously, you cannot expect people to recognize a btc adress and donate, esp. not the usual minecraft kiddies "OH MY GOD I FOUND THIS COOL NEW HECC NOW I CAN TAKE OVER THE WORLD 111!!!!!1!1!!". We need ingame popups, point it out in the readme, any attention that is possible to get. This would be the first step to a monetized baritone. Goinhg hardcore overnight would just instantly kill any community there is.

[bddvlpr]

You need an IQ above 130 to recognize the address; aka nobody of the target audience will notice it.