Heavensward support

[rocketmantis]

There are five parts to this, I think:

1. Support for crafter levels 51 through 60 using existing recipes and actions.
2. New recipes introduced by 3.0
3. New actions for 51+ crafters
4. Specialist actions, and a way to mark which classes you have specialized in
5. Somehow figure out how to even optimize using the new specialist actions, because wow that seems like a hard problem.

The new actions (especially the specialist actions) seem to not lend themselves very well to using a hard-coded action sequence, and that's fine -- getting even step 1 done would restore a lot of functionality for 51+ crafters.

[Diskmaster]

I've noticed that the penalty is steeper inbetween 50 to 51 recipes and beyond, so that might need refactoring or taken into account. As for the new recipes, I'm sure those will become available when the Libra Eorzea is updated again with 3.0's DB data.

[doxxx]

Regarding the new recipes, I've written a tool which scrapes the new recipes from the Lodestone website. I'll be updating the website with the new recipes soon.

Unfortunately, neither of us subscribe to FFXIV anymore so we have to rely on others for information about how the formulas change for levels 51-60.

[Diskmaster]

What kind of information do you need?

[doxxx]

Ideally, an actual formula that somebody else has already figured out. :)

But otherwise, a clear YouTube video showing the character pane, buffs and chat log (showing quality, progress, conditions, etc.) while performing a synth for a variety of recipes at various character levels. Specifically, a level 50 character doing the new level 51+ synths, (i.e. not level 50 star recipes) and level 51-60 characters doing level 51+ recipes.

[Diskmaster]

I'm currently not very far into the 50+ stuff (all DoH are sitting at 50 except for CUL 51 from a Buttons in a Blanket binge), so I should be able to come up with something with a bit of effort once I have some material stored up for it.

[rocketmantis]

It may or may not be relevant to this, but over in the desynthesis thread they've established the following:

The Craft Level (clvl, or c#, followed by 0 or more *s) denotes how hard an item is to craft. Generally, recipes are designed to be made by crafters whose job level is the same as the clvl. The Recipe Level (rlvl, or r#) is a hidden value that tells you how hard an item is to desynth and how much experience you'll gain from the desynth.

Craftable c51: rlvl = 115 OR 120 (check the recipe's Difficulty: 339 means r115, 421 means r120) Craftable c52: rlvl = 125 Craftable c53: rlvl = 130 Craftable c54: rlvl = 133 Craftable c55: rlvl = 136 Craftable c56: rlvl = 139 Craftable c57: rlvl = 142 Craftable c58: rlvl = 145 Craftable c59: rlvl = 148 Craftable c60: rlvl = 150 Craftable c60*: rlvl = ??? (160 suspected)

I know it's not data, but the difference between being level 50 and 51 feels really huge. I'd believe it if it turns out that you're effectively going from level 50 to 115 as far as crafting strength goes. Innovation I and II are going to be kind of weird in this new world, I suspect.

I have a few different classes in the 50-52 range now; I'll see about getting you some hard data this week.

[doxxx]

@Diskmaster, has the Android Libra Eorzea app been updated with the level 51-60 recipes yet? If so, would it be possible to get a copy again?

You can upload the app_data.sqlite file to here: https://www.dropbox.com/request/4YPvXBukItu6t8gUxvyr

[Diskmaster]

Not as of yet, from the looks of things.

[RyouR]

@rocketmantis I agree on the going from 50 to 51 feels huge. I didn't have the best gear, mostly quest/random craft (and even then just the class specific) and I was STRUGGLING it felt like. I was having to use HQ mats to even hope to get the collectables at a point of quality where i could turn them in. Once I hit 53 and replaced the gear (with a MASSIVE jump in control and craftsmanship) it got so much easier though, I'm even HQ'ing things now where I wasn't before.

That all said...

I've used this site for a long time and I wanted to try to help out a little, so I just recorded me doing some crafting on my weaver. The first is me using just a hard coded macro, which I copied into the video desc. The second I do by hand while making a couple other items and I hit a couple things like the new Byregots and Ingenuity. Hope these help some.

http://youtu.be/Nc35p0mNLqI http://youtu.be/U4OR-A6AgrY

[lokyst]

@RyouR Thank you for the crafting videos. They were both helpful and at the same time perplexing, since it seems that recipes with the same level can have different progress formulas with the same craftsmanship.

Would it be possible to do another set of synths showing all stats again (assuming that your stats and level have changed since you recorded these videos):

1. Rainbow thread finished with just CS2 (no ingenuity).
2. Rainbow thread finished with Ingenuity 1, CS2.
3. Rainbow Ribbon of Aiming finished with CS2 (no ingenuity), Ingenuity 1, CS2.

[lokyst]

My suspicion is that the maximum level difference is capped differently depending on whether we are synthesizing an ingredient vs. a finished good.

It would help test this theory if someone could perform the above test with an ingredient synth and an equivalent level finished good synthesis that is not Rainbow thread / Rainbow Ribbon of Aiming.

Any volunteers? :)

[RyouR]

I'll get on that for you here in a few. I'm now 54 with slightly more craft and a lot more control, but I'll boost the craft with food for better comparisons.

I'm also going to be working on some of the next tier up thread/cloth so will upload a few of them with/without ingenuity.

Edit: Ok, I'm going through and doing these and paying attention to some things as I do and I'm noticing a couple odd things. Namely that my CS2 seems to be doing RANDOM amounts of increase per synth. 1 time it's like 163, then 164, then 167 or something like that. I've got that in a video thanks to the way I'm recording (shadowplay) so when I noticed it in log I used the shadow function and it literally was timed perfectly to me starting to look at the log!

Edit 2:

Interestingly enough, when I did it on the ribbon it all stuck to the same thing. Given the narrow range on the thread, I'm wondering if square is using decimals and that may effect it somewhat. Regardless, videos linked below. Hope they help clear things up for you some!

https://youtu.be/wQzFTp8b2CA https://youtu.be/FCi23-AhTe4 http://youtu.be/7yNYteUu6Cc http://youtu.be/CXHwi2oBMbc

[lokyst]

@RyouR You rock, sir (or madam)! I will take a look at these today.

[RyouR]

It's technically sir ;) But that's besides the point lol. Glad to have been of help. I'm also now 56 with some of the specialist actions and next gear set on if you'd like to see some of that. Some of them seem like they could be game changers, but also some are going to be impossible to macro. The 57 on is particular interest (in my opinion) for long crafts since it's another durability restore, but based off this new decreasing stack buff thing you put on yourself. If it's high stacks = high durability restore then for 54 CP total you could get more than using master's mend possibly.

[lokyst]

@RyouR Well, I tracked down the "random" variation that you were seeing to having Ingenuity on versus off. :)

Now that you're 56 I would appreciate more Rainbow thread and Ramie Thread with and without ING on CS2, since modelling ingenuity is proving quite tricky.

Also, my information on crafting items higher than your crafter level is severely lacking, so if you happen to be trying a higher level item I would appreciate a video of that too. Once again with and without Ingenuity if possible, but I realize mats cost $$$, so I will take whatever you can provide :)

[RyouR]

Hmm, I thought I had ing off, but it was late and I was tired sooo... understandable mistake :P

Yea the price of mats is stupidly high atm imo... But I'll see what I can do. I was crafting some higher level stuff on my cook, and think I still have all mats for it, so I think I can do that. But I remember it was a huge pain and I was basically doing nothing but CS2 or it would fail.... To be honest it feels like crafting in general has become a bit more of a pain rofl. Oh well!

Edit: So I'm starting the synths now and noticed something interesting. Ing had 0 effect on Rainbow Thread for me now. It was same progress for each time. I even tried using standard synth just to see, and it did nothing still.

Edit 2: Video time!

http://youtu.be/N8BSTRTBVHc http://youtu.be/AOiYMdCir4I http://youtu.be/CthIPhIjKkU http://youtu.be/V0rYO29tXwI http://youtu.be/2h_I-0LQvEI

[Synlaar]

Hello,

I have an hypothesis that might explaint this kind of gaps betweek lvl 50 and 51 somewhat (as well as the seamingly negligeable effect of Ing on some receipe) !

1 / Like we have new rLevel for each level of crafts (51 = rLvl 115/120, 52 = rLvl 125, etc), I think we have similar level progression for the crafter level to use in the formulas. Starting level 51 you cLevel is 120 ( i think ) , level 52 is 125, etc ... It gives somewhat good results but it is far from perfect.

2/ Also it seams that Ing1 change the receipe level more than 5 level (of at least more that 5 cLevel on the new scale. It may match 5 "true levels").

It maybe do this kind of conversion for more than just Ing. also there may be some hidden level to match level 50 thresolds (55, 70, 90, 110).

Also at level 50 there seems to be a slight diffence between what is given by the simulator and reality : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XAezPU_lXaphD0yKJsBHBqVFNSM7cy473ud9l9222qk/edit?usp=sharing Is this something introduced with Heavensward ?

Hope this help .

J.

[doxxx]

Thanks for all the data!

@lokyst has been working hard to find a formula that produces good results for all the data we've seen so far. She's making some progress but they've done some odd things to the way level differences and Ingenuity are handled, which is making it hard to get consistently good results. For instance, high levels of control (>1200) and large multipliers (>4) produce quality gains that off from our calculations by a significant amount.

@Synlaar: Which synthesis action was used to get the results in that spreadsheet?

[Synlaar]

@doxxx : always CS2.

[flan]

No videos, and maintenance messed with my plans, but I've got two progress data-points to share.

Alchemist 58 Craftsmanship 528 Control 520 Unmodified Careful Synthesis II

Linseed Oil: 212 Void Glue: 204

Sorry for any confusion my previous comment may have caused; on re-reading it, it seemed like noise.

[SagaZekken]

I'm very interested in working out good formulas for progress and quality, but sadly I'm really bad at statistics and anything relating to regression. What I can do though is give you a lot of data if you think it would be helpful.

Me and a few others could go through every crafting recipe and doing both a basic touch and basic synthesis with varying stat values, then logging the results. Do you think this would help you find the formulas?

[lokyst]

@RyouR @Synlaar @flan Thanks for the data points. I do not have a lot of time during the week, but I will plug them in to my spreadsheet of doom this weekend. Hopefully I have nailed the effect of ingenuity on low level progress. I'm almost scared to put in these new points! :)

@SagaZekken There's no need to go through every recipe, since for the same crafter level and recipe level (except 51 -- damn you, Squeenix!) they follow very similar patterns. What I think I should do at this point is provide a targeted list of experiments so that we can cover more unexplored ground. Yet another thing I aim to do this weekend. :) For now I can tell you that I am sorely lacking information on crafting recipes higher than your crafter level with and without ingenuity1 and ingenuity2. Personally I'm hoping it follows the pattern for level 50* recipes.

Later today I will post a link to my spreadsheet of doom on GoogleSheets so that if any of you want to try alternative formulations you have some data to test it out on.

[Synlaar]

Can anyone with a level below 50 (but not too much) can try one or two same level craft (and maybe some one or two level below) to see if the deviation seen at level 50 aplly to lower level receipes ? Thanks

[flan]

A few more data-points; pairs are (Unmodified CS2 / Unmodified Basic or Hasty Touch)

Blacksmith @ 58 Craftsmanship: 542 Control: 528 Mythrite Ingot: 209 / 221

Carpenter @ 58 Craftsmanship: 542 Control: 528 Dark Chestnut Lumber: 193 / 220

Weaver @ 57 Craftsmanship: 505 Control: 462 Rainbow Cloth: 195 / 197 Holy Rainbow Cloth: 190 / 196

[lokyst]

As promised: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tOz7EeCkmJDtueYXd1FChh41UTX4lDh0yWvOW3msydc/edit?usp=sharing

[lokyst]

I also need more even level crafts above 50 with and without ingenuity 1 and ingenuity 2 demonstrating progress and quality improving actions.

Proper list of experiments to come later this weekend. Just thought I would get this out there.

[SagaZekken]

By the way, I was poking around the game's files the other day and noticed something weird in regards to recipe data. There seems to be a "Factor" variable for durability, quality, and progress. These factors are different on different recipes, but sometimes the same even for recipes of different levels. I was wondering if this is something that was already there and known, or if it's something new with Heavensward?

Anyways, here's three recipes' data so you can see what I mean: http://i.imgur.com/v4tVztu.png?1

[doxxx]

Those factors look like the difference between ingredients vs finished goods. Recipes for ingredients usually have half the difficulty and durability of finished goods of the same level.

[doxxx]

Since I have your attention in this thread, I was hoping I get could get some eyeballs on the multi-page-layout changes described in #58.

[flan]

Possibly useful for figuring out the scale for progress-gains:

Alchemist @ 59 Craftsmanship: 542 Control: 528 Void Glue: 209 / 221

This is the same result as seen by my BSM at 58 with the same stats and an identical-difficulty recipe. (This isn't too surprising, and it seems to be consistent with how pre-HW crafting worked, too)

[flan]

Numbers from an FC member: ALC @ 55 Craftsmanship: 467 Control: 442 Admantite Nugget: 65 progress, CS2 unmodified; 136 with Ingenuity II Bladed Steel Jig: 65 progress, CS2 unmodified; 90 with Ingenuity II

[lokyst]

@flan The last set look like BSM?

[flan]

My ALC at 59 and BSM at 58, with identical stats, got the same progress and quality numbers on recipes of the same level, so progress gains start to become very small pretty fast, relative to class level.

We'd expect them to stay small past a certain point (they were very small past a difference of 15 in ARR), but this seems to support the idea that recipe level difference still dictates things as heavily as it did before. On Jul 17, 2015 9:11 PM, "lokyst" notifications@github.com wrote:

@flan https://github.com/flan The last set look like BSM?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/issues/56#issuecomment-122477419 .

[rocketmantis]

Well, I wasn't able to get videos, but I have a few more data points for you regardless. I tested a few different recipes with no ingenuity, Ing 1 and Ing 2. I'm not going to list separate results for Ing 1 vs. 2 because they turned out to be completely identical in all cases for me. I double checked just to be absolutely sure that I wasn't accidentally using the wrong Ingenuity, but it's very consistent; at least for these recipes at this level and gear, Ing 2 isn't any more effective than Ing 1.

These are all done as GSM 53, with 322 craftsmanship and 313 control. All numbers were collected at Normal status with no buffs active.

Mythrite Ingot, Mythrite Needle, Mythrite Bracelet of Fending, all level 52 recipes (ie. -1 level)

Ingenuity	Basic Synth	CS2	Basic Touch
None	85	102	142
Ing 1/2	102	123	142

Hardsilver Nugget, level 54 recipe (+1 level)

Ingenuity	Basic Synth	CS2	Basic Touch
None	51	62	125
Ing 1/2	102	122	142

Star Sapphire, Star Ruby, and Hardsilver Bangle of Casting, all level 55 recipes (+2 levels)

Ingenuity	Basic Synth	CS2	Basic Touch
None	37	45	106
Ing 1/2	102	122	141

[lokyst]

A work in progress, obviously, but I am keeping notes on my findings here: https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/wiki/heavensward-formulae

[lokyst]

@rocketmantis Mythrite Bracelet of Fending appears to be a level 52 recipe if I look at the lodestone. Can you verify your data?

[lokyst]

@flan The Mythrite Ingot example you gave here does not fit the model at all. Could you check your stats/outcomes? Your BSM stats look identical to your carpenter stats. Maybe it's a cut and paste error?

[flan]

I typed everything by hand, but I'll retry the synth today On Jul 18, 2015 8:27 AM, "lokyst" notifications@github.com wrote:

@flan https://github.com/flan The Mythrite Ingot example you gave here https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/issues/56#issuecomment-122134111 does not fit the model at all. Could you check your stats/outcomes? Your BSM stats look identical to your carpenter stats. Maybe it's a cut and paste error?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/issues/56#issuecomment-122548967 .

[rocketmantis]

@lokyst Ah, you're right, it is 52. I'll update the post, and get you some 53 numbers in a sec here.

Update: with same stats as before, Raw Larimar, level 53 recipe (+0 levels)

Ingenuity	Basic Synth	CS2	Basic Touch
None	68	81	142
Ing 1/2	102	122	142

I don't know if it's useful to do the same recipe with different stats, but here: GSM 53, craftsmanship 455, control 385, Raw Larimar again I'm still testing both Ingenuity 1 and 2 even though they're still giving me the same results every time.

Ingenuity	Basic Synth	CS2	Basic Touch
None	96	116	168
Ing 1/2	145	174	168

Star Ruby again:

Ingenuity	Basic Synth	CS2	Basic Touch
None	53	63	125
Ing 1/2	145	174	167

I don't have much exp left before I hit 54, so let me know if you have any requests for me to test before levelling.

[flan]

CUL @ 60 Craft: 592 Control: 557

Careful Synthesis II / Hasty Touch Frozen Spirits: 189 / 230

Unfortunately, I can't give you validation on my Mythrite Ingot, since I hit 59 after trying one, and the first quality struck on Good. The class and gear levels are right, though, and I'm pretty confident in the numbers I submitted because I double-checked at the time because they looked the same, which seemed surprising until I thought about it.

[flan]

WVR @ 57 Craft: 505 Control: 462

Ramie Thread: 172p / 196q

Same stats at 58: 179p / 196q

58 with craft=542, control=528: 193p / 220q

[lokyst]

@flan I'm assuming CS2 and HT again with the Ramie Thread?

[flan]

Yep, unmodified

[lokyst]

@rocketmantis Examples of the same synth with with different levels of Craftsmanship do help. I think I am good for L53 synths. Go ahead and ding :+1:

[lokyst]

@rocketmantis Actually, could double check the Larimar with 322 craftsmanship, using CS2 with Ing2 while still at 53 ... All signs pointing to it being on the cusp of 123.

[rocketmantis]

@lokyst Double checked, it's 122. I tried a couple other values in the range too, since raw larimars are dirt cheap on my server. All still at GSM 53:

Craftsmanship	CS2 + Ing2
312	119
315	120
318	121
320	122
322	122
323	123
325	124
326	124
328	125
331	126
334	127

[RyouR]

I wasn't recording at the time, but I just noticed something that may prove slightly helpful. As mentioned before there seems to be a HUGE gap between 50 and 51 crafting wise. I just leveled to 51 on my Cul and the recipe I was making became MUCH easier.

369 Craft 327 Control

Stuffed Cabbage Rolls - Level 52 Difficulty 503

CUL Level 50 CS2 No Ing - 51 Progress CS2 Ing - 56 Progress

CUL Level 51 CS2 No Ing - 56 Progress CS2 Ing - 141 Progress

That is a HUGE increase

Just for comparison, although I didn't use it at 50, Standard Synth with Ing gives 176 and 70 without.

[Buffylvr]

Joined from a PM on Bluegartr from @lokyst.

Here is a copy/paste from my BG post.

Here is some crafting/craftmanship info for some of you.

With 689 Craftsmanship, on a level 60 1 star recipe (so the turn in items for ltw and weaver):

Rapid Synth (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 203 Progress Careful Synth II (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 97 Progress Careful Synth II (Ingeniuty II) = 177 Progress

689 Craftsmanship on a level 59 recipe (Scale Glue):

Name of Water + Brand of Water = 489 progress (459 to complete)

689 Craftsmanship on a level 60 recipe (Chrysolite):

Name of Wind + Brand of Wind = 444 Progress (478 to complete)

I'm new to Github so I'm not sure what to do/etc. I can craft any recipe. I'm 60 all crafts and 689 craftsmanship with food (661 without). I have all three mastercraft books. Just let me know what you need ~

[lokyst]

@RyouR Welp, you did just gain the equivalent of about 70 levels with that ding!

[lokyst]

@Buffylvr Welcome aboard! I saw your post and thought you might be interested in sharing your results.

Right now I am gathering information on the effects of actions on progress and quality so I can derive a crafting model for 51+. I just input your info about 60* recipes into my spreadsheet of doom to see if it follows the prevailing trend. Also, at some point I will need to nail down the effect of the new actions.

You can share your results as comment or youtube video, whichever is easiest for you, provided you display the following information somehow:

Class Level: ## Craftsmanship: ### Control: ###

Recipe: XXXXX Recipe Level: ##

and then the actions and any effects plus their results. e.g. inner quiet stacks, quality gains, progress etc.

That said, because of the progressive nature of the "Name of Element" and "Brand of Element" actions, I think a Youtube video with the character attributes pane open while you craft would be really helpful, so that I can see how the progress gains increase as a function of the completed progress.