Sunroom (Greenhouse/Multi-purpose Dining/Creative/Workshop Room) ?

[nelsonic]

We are fortunate to have a decent amount of back garden space: 6m x 25m = 150m²:

Note: this image does not do it "justice", at present it is still very much a "building site"!

Our plan has always been to have a Greenhouse where we can grow seedlings of edible plants.

The question we recently asked ourselves is: can we make the Greenhouse a multi-purpose space?

https://www.google.com/search?q=greenhouse+dining+room&tbm=isch

.this, but with desks on wheels and a few sofas: https://www.humphreymunson.co.uk/botanist-greenhouse-summer-rosewood-london/

Goal

Our goal is to make a room which has:

• [x] Plenty of natural light ☀️ (both for the plants and people using the room)
• [x] A wide variety of plants 🌻 (_both edible and "companion" / decorative; clearly labeled of course!_)
• [x] Shelves where we can grow seedlings 🌱
• [x] An expandable table where people can work, have a meeting or workshop. 💻
• [x] Lockable to avoid theft of plants or other greenhouse equipment. 🔐
• [x] Ventilated to ensure it does not over-heat.
  • [x] We will be automating the ventilation at some point in the future. 🤖

Relevant reading:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)

Todo

• [x] Draw the greenhouse model in Sketchup to share with our construction foreman
• [x] Send 3D model to foreman to request advice and/or quote
• [ ] Request more quotes for:
  • [ ] Concrete
  • [ ] Steel structure
  • [ ] Glass: dwyl/home#228
• [ ] Get the work done!

[nelsonic]

@carolrmc this "What Type of Greenhouse Should You Build?" video is quite insightful: https://youtu.be/FPjko9DDhcU

[Cleop]

@nelsonic - have you thought how you can ensure the greenhouse is still enjoyable in the winter/ colder temperatures? Will it be heated at all?

[nelsonic]

@Cleop good question! We were not planning on connecting the greenhouse to the central heating. But we were considering having fan heaters in the room which people can direct for localised heat.

Worth noting that the temperature in Braga has (historically) not gone below 5^o (Centigrade): https://www.worldweatheronline.com/braga-weather-averages/braga/pt.aspx

it never freezes and the average temp on the coldest day is 9^o. it won't be as cold as the "QuietSpace" warehouse was in the winter ...

My reasoning for using "space heaters" instead of plugging into the central heating is this:

• people will only use the room for certain times of the day e.g: 08:00 - 18:00. ☀️
  • we aren't expecting people to use the space at night ... 🌃
• localised heating is more energy efficient than trying to heat the whole room.
• we can use our solar energy (from roof panels) to power the local heaters on-demand.

[nelsonic]

Apparently, American's call this type of room a "Sunroom" or "Solarium" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunroom

See: https://www.google.com/search?q=sunroom&tbm=isch

[Cleop]

or us brits a conservatory or if you're mega posh 🎩 🍊 an orangery 😉

[nelsonic]

Dimensions of the Area

These are the dimensions we have to work with:

Our preliminary idea is to make the sunroom 8m x 4m between the kiwi vine and the East Wall. And BBQ (Grill + Outdoor Oven) along the East Wall where it would not block any Sunlight.

[nelsonic]

8m x 4m might either seem big or small depending on your viewpoint ... it's big by "single family" conservatory/room standards. but tiny by comparison to a public greenhouse.

We feel the space will be "just right" for the number of people we are expecting to accommodate. Baring in mind that not everyone staying in the house will be in the Sunroom at all times. (there are 6 areas for people to work and "hang out" in; the Sunroom is the second biggest...)

If we were to hold a "lecture" style meetup in the Sunroom it would fit around 30 people: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/number-persons-buildings-d_118.html

[iteles]

The older gentleman who has been painting the doorframes in the house has asked if he can have the old windows, which we had originally discussed recycling into a greenhouse.

It seems that he's going to upcycle them into something else too.

I love the idea of making something out of them, but then they're quite small for the effect we want to create for the greenhouse here but they'd make great whiteboards, mini greenhouses, side tables or things of this sort!

Given that they would be upcycled anyway, it's not too much of an issue, but if we can integrate one or two into the house, that would be grand.

I propose we check out their state to see how they're faring and then make a call.

[nelsonic]

@iteles I would be delighted if the olde doors + windows go to someone who will re-use them rather than a processing plant where they would be put through a wood-chipper!

Being free to design with "fresh" materials will allow us to make something considerably slicker.
It will probably end up costing a similar amount because recycling odd-sized materials is a time-suck of measuring, re-measuring and a ton of "finishing" work.

[nelsonic]

Bumped this up to P1 to indicate the priority I feel it deserves right now in my task list. It's not costing us money to not have the greenhouse but as soon as we do have it, the garden will be in a much nicer state (so we can receive guests) and we can use it to work outside and be more effective.

[nelsonic]

For the construction of the multi-story greenhouse we will be using I-Beams (_sometimes called "universal beams" (UB) because they are used universally in civil engineering (construction) projects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-beam

Thankfully, in the EU we have Euronorm 19-57 which specifies the standard beam dimensions: https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/77301fc4-214e-4721-bacb-8cec8d81dde2/language-en

I will be using IPE 240 which is 240 x 120mm http://www.jsoarescorreia.pt/wp-content/uploads/1111/11/perfis.pdf

If like me, you did not study civil engineering at University¹ but still want to follow along, start with this video: https://youtu.be/zSz0kV0BPDY

To understanding how beams handle forces, watch this MIT Tecg Eng video: https://youtu.be/xr3eMXWKLBM

¹Don't worry about not having studied engineering at University. Thankfully all the learning material is freely available online to the curious and determined. Remember that Thomas Edison, [Henry Ford]() and Nicola Tesla were all self-taught none of them graduated from college and all are revered for their contributions to engineering, science and technology. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autodidacts#Engineers_and_inventors The Wright brothers, generally credited with inventing, building, and flying the world's first successful airplane, attended high school, but did not receive diplomas. No degrees. But still invented the airplane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers a lack of formal education is not an excuse to not do something, it's not even a handicap. Anyone can learn anything online for free.

https://youtu.be/cq_bUf3EfY0

Further Reading & Useful Links

• https://www.brighthubengineering.com/machine-design/40491-how-to-select-a-correctly-size-steel-i-beam
• https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/16823/moment-of-inertia-forces-and-torque

Laminated Glass / Vidro Laminado

Porto supplier: https://www.grupososoares.pt/pt/vidro/produto/6 Braga Supplier: http://vidrariamultiglass.pai.pt/ms/ms/vidraria-multiglass-lda-vidros-4700-023-braga/ms-90047555-p-2/

[nelsonic]

Tried searching for Steel Beams on Sketchup 3D Warehouse: https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/collection/d71c11af60faf052f45ff5495d6cab4c/Steel-Beams

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/5db1de978aa64e4a72fa4bd92d7b6aba/Evergreen-I-Beams That looked promising, but unfortunately the measurements were all in inches and when I attempted to import the model it tried to convert my drawing to inches ... no thanks.

[nelsonic]

https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?SearchText=stainless+slide

[nelsonic]

https://www.decoist.com/glass-floor-ideas/a-walk-on-the-sensational-glass-floor/

[nelsonic]

https://www.cantifix.co.uk/products/glass-floor/fixed-multiple-panels/

[nelsonic]

https://longroofing.com/blog/a-comprehensive-guide-to-flat-roof-systems/ https://coxroofing.com/how-to-make-a-flat-roof-have-a-pitch/

[nelsonic]

Steel structure:

[nelsonic]

First attempt to draw spiral staircase fail:

[nelsonic]

This is the type of glass I intend to use around the top level:

[nelsonic]

External Spiral Staircase step heights:

1	171.43
2	342.86
3	514.29
4	685.71
5	857.14
6	1,028.57
7	1,200.00
8	1,371.43
9	1,542.86
10	1,714.29
11	1,885.71
12	2,057.14
13	2,228.57
14	2,400.00

Nala 🐈 totes helping me figure out the stairs:

[nelsonic]

@iteles / @carolrmc I've finished the initial render of the Sun Room:

Please let me know when you have 5 mins to walk through it.

The "strong" colors in the model are just so it's easy to explain to the building contractors.

The actual colors will be:

• White (painted) for the structural steel
• White for the basement walls (currently in bright green to show where they need to be built)
• Mirrors for the middle floor walls (to add a sense of space)
• Folding full-height windows for the middle floor see: https://github.com/nelsonic/roof-garden/issues/4
• Sliding doors (currently in orange, the main entrance to ground and basement levels) will be white.
• The pink square above the spiral staircase will be a rain protector for the staircase (tbd).

[nelsonic]

The interior of the sun room will be packed with plants ... 🌱

for now you need to use your imagination. 💡

[nelsonic]

With grass around the front for illustration:

[nelsonic]

@iteles I will print off the designs when we are next in our "office" with the A3 printer. Meanwhile, please feel free to share with Pedro/Carlos if you think it's relevant. (I understand that we don't want to distract anyone from the roof dwyl/home#35 right now ...)

[nelsonic]

Printed. Taking designs with to show Pedro/Carlos tomorrow. 👍

[carolrmc]

Fantastic!

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 at 18:49, Nelson notifications@github.com wrote:

Printed. Taking designs with to show Pedro/Carlos tomorrow. 👍

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/dwyl/home/issues/14?email_source=notifications&email_token=AF37S7SHXYKPBG7V6T2TVHDP4T4S7A5CNFSM4FW2B4O2YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGODYX4BAQ#issuecomment-506445954, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AF37S7R73NJ5T363YC2CBLTP4T4S7ANCNFSM4FW2B4OQ .

[nelsonic]

Derp. didn't mean to close it ... 🙄

[nelsonic]

@iteles do you have any feedback on the designs (above) before I send them to magnivertente to ask for quotes?

[iteles]

@nelsonic I reckon it would be good to specify which panes of glass should be openable but they're perfect for asking for a quote, thank you so much for drawing this all out :tada:

My only real concern is ventilation so please also ask for a quote with the doors that fold all the way back on the ground floor (porta de harmónio no piso rés do chão, ao longo da face Noroeste da estrutura) so that we can open them out in the Summer.

Please also ask them how this the breeze block wall would need to be underneath the metal/glass structure to adequately support its weight + a full capacity of people comfortably.

Separately, I'd be interested in discussing the entry points for the electricals with you and Carlos in a bit more details to determine where the water tight entry points may be.

---

Pedro and Carlos will be clearing the area tomorrow (Tuesday 8-Oct-2019) and if they finish by the end of the day, they'll start digging the hole for this the following day. I've arranged with Carlos that António will be able to start shoring up the hole with breeze block on Wednesday or Thursday as well.

After speaking to him for a decent amount of time on the phone this morning about this (and also general garden clearing, ventilation for the pool machine room, where thewaterwell would be hooked up and how the guttering might work), I think you're right in that it will probably required more supervision than we'd hoped @nelsonic 😕

[iteles]

Carlos would be available to begin work on this from about the 18th or more likely, 25th May onwards.

A lot needs to be done before this but because I was on the phone with him, I asked about availability in general.

[nelsonic]

Sadly, Carlos had other priorities in May, June and July and now in August he is on annual leave so no progress. 😞

@iteles as verbally discussed this morning, if we could get Carlos/Pedro to finish digging the hole, lay the basement (insulated) walls in September, we could get a different supplier to do the above ground part. https://arquitetoldos.com.pt/banner/ban_02.jpg

Do you want to speak to the Foreman from ArquiteToldos to explain our requirements today?

[nelsonic]

I'm going to re-do the design using FreeCAD so that we can extract a BIM with all the info to actually build this thing! ⌛

[nelsonic]

Once the FreeCAD Re-design is complete, we will send it to our prospective suppliers/partners.

https://www.novoprojecto.pt/marquises managed by https://www.linkedin.com/in/andr%C3%A9-taciano-teodoro-juhaz-72853b22a/

[nelsonic]

@LuchoTurtle this is the historical issue thread for the Braga @home Sun Room if you want the history. ⏳ The actual issue we need to be working on is: https://github.com/dwyl/learn-cad-cam-cnc/issues/55

[nelsonic]

This is an example of an off-the-shelf spiral staircase we could use outside: https://www.leroymerlin.pt/produtos/portas-janelas-e-escadas/escadas-interiores/escadas-em-caracol

Reviews are "mixed". Usually because expectations are off. Sadly we cannot see this spiral staircase in-person before buying it and the photos aren't great. 💭

[nelsonic]

This is my last ditch attempt to get help with FreeCAD Arch: https://forum.freecad.org/viewtopic.php?t=78591

If I don't get a reply in the next few days I'm just going to use SketchUp for the redesign because I know I can get it done in a couple of days with a tool I'm proficient in.

[iteles]

Would this be a product Sebastião would know or do they very much only use closed source CAD and there's no point asking?

[nelsonic]

@iteles I axsked Rita at Pascoa and they use Revit at their very closed source (minded) firm. autodesk.com/products/revit/overview costs $2,805/year / $350/month per "user".

I axked Seb for help years ago when he visited our house and offer to pay him and he never got back to me. 🤷‍♂️ $100/hour is the going rate for an architect in LDN/NYC. 🤑 Guarantee Seb isn't making that much in PT; not even close. If he wants to learn FreeCAD (which is a super-transferrable skill) and help me I'm always down. But ultimately what I want right now is someone experienced so that I can do the design fast. As noted in #BurnRate we are burning €300/day ... 💸 🔥 So $100/hour to get this done pays for itself pretty quickly if I only need a few hours of someone's time.

[nelsonic]

Got a private message from someone who is an architect and industrial designer:

Seems like exactly the kind of person I need help from. Going to reply and setup a T30m Zoom meeting.

[nelsonic]

In case anyone is reading this in the future wondering why I'm so obsessed with using FreeCAD instead of some proprietary CAD software it's because I want to get good at the Open Source CAD software so that I can use it to build many things over the next 10 years. This is very much the "long game".

[nelsonic]

Feeling confident that I can do this in FreeCAD; these are just the first two columns: 🚧

going to spend the next T25m adding more. 🧑‍💻 ⌛

[nelsonic]

Using the concrete calculator: https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/construction/concrete-calculator.php I input the values of:

• 200mm depth
• 5000mm width
• 11000mm length

and get 11 m³

To get this into a single "pour" we need to stay below 10 m³ and ideally under 9 m³. That is totally achievable. I'm glad this is in the right ballpark. 🎉

[nelsonic]

I was curious about the regulations around thickness of basement floor and it appears that 3.5 inches (8.9cm) is the minimum. There doesn't appear to be a major advantage to making it thicker:

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/117884/any-advantage-to-pouring-a-thicker-concrete-slab-for-the-basement

Going to try and be smart about this. If there's €1k I don't need to spend I will not waste it. 👌 But my objective is to make the structure as strong as possible for the available budget. 💭

[nelsonic]

Created Spreadsheet in FreeCAD and started adding dimensions for parametric model:

Most of the values won't change; they are constants. But I'm already using them as the basis for calculated values for positions of other objects:

Again, confident I can build a much better model in FreeCAD than I ever could in SketchUp. 🤞 Just need more time ...

[nelsonic]

North columns placed:

Feel like a slow pace. but getting there.

[nelsonic]

Just got the following error:

cannot import name '_ArchStructureGroupCommand' from 'ArchStructure' (/Applications/FreeCAD.app/Contents/Resources/Mod/Arch/ArchStructure.py)

Posted forum question to: https://forum.freecad.org/viewtopic.php?t=78725

[nelsonic]

Decided to enter the Matrix and download the weekly build of FreeCAD in the hopes that this Arch Workbench issue is resolved: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD-Bundle/releases/tag/weekly-builds

Appears to be working:

Getting back to adding beams. 🚧

[nelsonic]

Sadly, still getting the same error when attempting to load the Arch workbench after restarting FreeCAD ...

Updated forum: https://forum.freecad.org/viewtopic.php?p=685216#p685216

[nelsonic]

OK progress ...

[nelsonic]

Busy adding the rebar for the walls ... (manually ... ⏳ )