Waterfront Land in Souselo (Rio Paiva -> Douro River) 🤯

[nelsonic]

This land deserves its' own issue/thread. 😍

https://www.imohouse.pt/imovel/quinta-com-frente-de-rio-cinfaes/14965499

https://supercasa.pt/venda-quintas-e-casas-rusticas-t4-cinfaes/i227748

PDF: T4-à-venda-em-Souselo_compressed.pdf

If I could somehow sell everything I own and put a deposit down I would buy it immediately ... will add my thoughts on our visit as comments below. related to: dwyl/phase-three#3 + dwyl/phase-three#25

[nelsonic]

Yesterday we went to visit two plots of land in the Douro Valley. ✌️ The first one I was hopeful for ended up being a non-starter see: https://github.com/dwyl/phase-three/issues/25#issuecomment-1233542929 The second viewing was this land and it was incredible. 😍 There are no neighbours (the land either side is abandoned). But even if there were people we still wouldn't see them as the trees form a natural barrier. 🌲

While we were there a guy went past in his dinghy:

This was 31^st August in a year of major drought and the river was still navegable up to the property.

When the listing says it borders the river for 150m they aren't kidding:

While we were standing there this river cruiser boat went past:

This is the Rio Paiva: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Paiva

"o rio menos poluído da Europa"

One of the least polluted rivers in Europe.

One of the best rivers in PT for white water rafting: https://visit-arouca.com/rafting-e-canoying-no-rio-paiva/

This video is quite old but gives you an idea of the rapids upstream: https://youtu.be/DxvuPk1o3Vg

There is an activist group https://www.riopaiva.org/

The soil is very fertile and already has several trees planted.

It has an established vine of my all-time-favourite grapes:

And more blackberries than we could ever hope to consume:

But there is still plenty of open space / uncultivated land that we could plant our own trees on:

This photo includes the ruin "mill" which we could easily rebuild as a cottage.

While we were there @iteles made an off-the-cuff remark regarding how we could build considerably more housing without affecting the existing land and it's so obvious it hurts!!

We dig the house into the hill such that it's invisible from above and is perfectly harmonious with nature

[nelsonic]

If you look at the available homes on AirBnB in the area for larger families: https://www.airbnb.com/s/cinfaes-Portugal/homes

Places on water are considerably more expensive than just "river view". For good reason. None of these have the "Scandinavian" minimalist look+feel we would go for.

[nelsonic]

The agent informed us that the current owner / seller of this land inherited it. They have used it as a weekend "vegetable patch"

This is the photo I took to show the farms across the valley:

The land is productive. 🥦

The owners are in their 70's and have only one child (son) who is not interested in the land. 🤷‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️

They have prepared the land using their tractor but not actually built anything on the land.

This is a photo of the lowest terrace that has access to the river:

The ruins are ready for re-building which is perfect IMO!

The periphery and all the paths to access the various terraces are all forest:

It's very shaded and there is plenty of firewood if we want to "manage" the forrest. The open terraces are have excellent sun exposure:

[nelsonic]

This is the cheapest AirBnB in the area with water access: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/18289137

It looks good. But has a microscopic garden:

It has dated decor e.g:

But still goes for €1,493 per week for a family of 6.

We could do something so much better!!

[carolrmc]

This looks very exciting!

On Thu, 1 Sep 2022 at 01:22, Nelson @.***> wrote:

Yesterday we went to visit two plots of land in the Douro Valley. ✌️ The first one I was hopeful for ended up being a non-starter see: dwyl/phase-three#25 (comment) https://github.com/dwyl/phase-three/issues/25#issuecomment-1233542929 The second viewing was this land and it was incredible. 😍 There are no neighbours (the land either side is abandoned). But even if there were people we still wouldn't see them as the trees form a natural barrier. 🌲

While we were there a guy went past in his dinghy: [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187802085-280dd96d-781e-4917-884f-d271d37479df.png

This was 31st August in a year of major drought and the river was still navegable up to the property.

When the listing says it borders the river for 150m they aren't kidding: [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804504-a1d4ff15-b2ac-401e-ab25-4e4ca37c2984.png

While we were standing there this river cruiser boat went past: [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804807-c3c3ce5e-5adb-4e90-af8d-319d5cb9484c.png

This is the Rio Paiva: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Paiva [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187806241-e03c2c5a-6edc-48a3-8e66-ce324e7a1245.png "o rio menos poluído da Europa"

One of the least polluted rivers in Europe.

One of the best rivers in PT for white water rafting: https://visit-arouca.com/rafting-e-canoying-no-rio-paiva/ [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187803657-4d69d605-c638-4087-896e-4c1db1a74db0.png

This video is quite old but gives you an idea of the rapids upstream: https://youtu.be/DxvuPk1o3Vg [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187803924-40f1d4d1-bf14-4bb2-898c-db6572862d2d.png

There is an activist group https://www.riopaiva.org/ [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804142-26d25f00-58e1-4b49-a383-3bf094443753.png

The soil is very fertile and already has several trees planted. [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804973-2df72f41-65e2-4424-805a-bf0080bf2343.png

It has an established vine of my all-time-favourite grapes: [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187804887-c1fc3b60-40b9-41b2-a289-61afa3eed09d.png

And more blackberries than we could ever hope to consume: [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187805082-0285adaf-0122-437e-b465-8bcad14493aa.png

But there is still plenty of open space / uncultivated land that we could plant our own trees on: [image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187805240-71a90774-2074-4015-9970-8bf5174a8e96.png

This photo includes the ruin "mill" which we could easily rebuild as a cottage.

While we were there @iteles https://github.com/iteles made an off-the-cuff remark regarding how we could build considerably more housing without affecting the existing land and it's so obvious it hurts!!

We dig the house into the hill such that it's invisible from above and is perfectly harmonious with nature

[image: image] https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/194400/187806011-3d2d9d9e-7649-4249-b822-2c70d2a4fec1.png

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/dwyl/phase-three/issues/116#issuecomment-1233583894, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AF37S7UQ4UK5UDZX5X3WUWLV37ZLDANCNFSM6AAAAAAQB2C47E . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

[nelsonic]

@carolrmc the pictures don’t even come close to doing this place justice. I super regret not having enough time to do a drone fly around to show the scale of it. Yes, its “only” 2.3ha but it feels like a giant playground with incredible potential. There’s enough space for every conceivable activity and enough established trees to build a dozen tree houses.

If Oupa didn’t want to do any waking he could easily stay on the upper terrace where the main house, veg patch and library would all be:

I’m not kidding when I say I would sell everything to buy this place right now. The river is deep enough at the point where we would build the pontoon to dock a decent size sail boat. ⛵️ And we could do day trips down the douro and out to the Atlantic Ocean! 🌊 we could literally use this as the starting point to sail around the world. It’s incredible! 🤩

The “problem” isn’t how awesome the land is, it’s that €270k is the tip of the iceberg of what we would need to spend to realise its’ potential.

We could easily spend €40k on an automated irrigation system to transform it to a lush tropical paradise. But if we run out of money before finishing it, we’d be at a huge loss if we tried to sell it. Because nobody would appreciate the investment that went in if they don’t have the finished result.

We need to write a detailed plan with sensible estimates for all the costs and timelines. This amongst all the other work that needs to be done … 🙄

would you help (have time to) review it if I write it? And crucially, would you want to live in an epic garden with the cleanest air and water in the country and virtually no noise except for the occasional church bell? 🤷🏼‍♂️

I have more ideas than I could hope to describe in comment here, but each one will require cash. Even a tree house won’t be “free” in terms of time+materials. But I think we could get it to the “open” state with paying guests with €250k and 2 years of hard work. (Rough estimate) … we would blitz renovate two of the smaller 2 bedroom ruins so they would be liveable ASAP so they could be rented out to make income. Even without it being “finished” I’m fairly certain that the right type of nature/adventure loving people would want to stay there.

Anyway … hope you have a great day! ☀️

[nelsonic]

@Stephanymtr given what we briefly discussed in the park this morning, could you please do T1h of desk research into the area around the property while I take A to the Doctor this morning? Basically we need the facts from an objective person. i.e: I want you to talk me out of this by researching how far/near the closest hospital is, how much competition there would be if we tried to establish an AGRO tourism business, etc.

these are the GPS coordinates: 41°03'39.1"N 8°14'43.6"W https://maps.app.goo.gl/oGjXVQkH9z7kcaU78?g_st=ic

thanks! 🙏

[Stephanymtr]

Let's go over a couple of disadvantages of moving to that area:

• Fewer Job Opportunities I know this will probably not be an issue initially because you are able to work remotely (assuming there will be good internet connection speed over there). I know you are pretty handy and will probably enjoy the farming life. However, but it's a huge land, and considering the amount of work you will be doing, you will need to hire some help at some point with odd jobs here and there (e.g., maintenance work, farming work, cleaning work) Given the area, you won't have as many options or maybe even the luxury to interview/filter out workers.

• Limited Access to Healthcare.

There is a centro de saude VERY close to the property, but doesn't look like it's the best one based on the (old) negative reviews on Google Maps. To be fair, most of the centro de saudes have negative reviews anyway.

The closest hospital is the Hospital da Misericórdia

I wasn't able to find anything online about this hospital e.g., what specialties they offer, emergency room 24/7, average amount of docs available etc, BUT it seems that they offer cuidados paleativos, nao tem urgencia.

Obviously, you should also think about routine visits. Even if there’s a good doctor in town, specialized medical facilities will be far away. If you or a member of your family requires regular care, you need to ensure that you will have access to an appropriate medical facility in the area you’re moving to. It might be worth speaking with locals & visiting the close facilities before hand for sure.

WIth that being said, there is a Suavemed (never heard of before) facility nearby as well. They have got different specialty doctors, good reviews on Google and a website 🥇 http://www.suavemed.pt/

I called them now and their closest location (below) is a clinica dentaria ONLY

look at that pretty smile!

Their 2nd location, a little further away, offers the other specialties mentioned above BUT it's por consultas marcadas only.

It's also worth mentioning people in rural areas don't invest in marketing their business as much as we (city people lol) do. Therefore, there MAY or MAY not be doctors even closer. We just won't know until we speak with locals.... but IS IT WORTH IT ?

During my call, I asked the lady which is the closest hospital that has urgencia a noite: Centro Hospitalar do Tâmega e Sousa https://www.chts.min-saude.pt/

Imagine having to drive yourself to the hospital at night* for that LONG 😝 aka #lastnightadventure.

• too quiet ? I mean, sounds like you might be going from 0 to 100 real quick! the quiet life in the countryside might actually be boring. You may miss the vibrancy and diversity of the big city and cultural events. Not to mention that there may be only one or two good restaurant in town and nearest movie theater/museum km away 😮 What are you going to do during those lazy days when you don't feel like cookin when ALL you want is prepared meal delivered to your house. It might be a bit far for Uber Eats 😆

Quite a few restaurant options (I'll give you that), but nothing vegetarian/vegan showed up on my research 💔 Nothing is walking distance tho! If you love to walk to your appts, your days are over!!! You will NEED a vehicle to get around. Let's hope there is a decent mechanic nearby...#dramatic

Closest movie theater (I know Netflix exists, but some people enjoy the cinema still)

Museum

I mean, overall limited services, convenience, entertainment options... isolated which is great for covid times 🤷‍♀️ 👍 How convinced are you now @nelsonic 😆

[iteles]

My view on this land was pretty simple: It's gorgeous and I love it, apart from the heart ache of having so much beautiful flat land that we're not allowed to build on 🙄 But I have 1 concern and 1 note of caution.

Before I go into those, I want to say that the access to a water source that will never dry up is awesome, the wooded area is super cool and the land inclination isn't an issue if we're not targeting this at the older generation. It could be the PERFECT holiday spot for a remote holiday: it's quiet, there's access to water, spots for sports and for allotments alike as well as a wooded area 🤩 I was also a big fan of the possibility of building into the terraces as we discussed briefly but that would be expensive and risk alienating the câmara (hard to do in stealth mode in a small place like that) so would be something to do after everything else is done.

I would not want to live there full time, but I'd be very happy to spend a couple of weeks there regularly like in Gerês.

Number 1 concern

The reason I wasn't anywhere near as convinced as @nelsonic about it is very simple: I don't think that the ruins on the land have a big enough footprint (área de implantação) for what we build there to be big enough for a lot of audiences.

I would say they are downright tiny (not much more than a tiny house) and we don't want to go much higher than 2 stories (also, staircases take up a lot of internal real estate 😬 ). I mean, if nothing else, they'll be fun to design 😂 NOT fun to build in Portugal where no one 'gets it' 🙄

But there is a tiny house expert in Portugal (https://www.odajoana.pt/) who I've been following since the beginning of their tiny house build in 2020 which was also the beginning of their tiny house business. They do consulting and it might be worth understanding their services as to whether it's worth spending a little time with them for the basics if we're doing multiple tiny houses. They are also great at sustainability with a focus on local Portuguese companies so very aligned with our values. Anyway, I digress.

This comes down to careful calculation with a business plan to see if the size of what we can build there can support the €270k land cost, which we were told in no uncertain times is highly unlikely to be negotiable and in fact went up by €10k 3 weeks ago.

Number 2 concern

We could easily spend €40k on an automated irrigation system to transform it to a lush tropical paradise. But if we run out of money before finishing it, we’d be at a huge loss if we tried to sell it. Because nobody would appreciate the investment that went in if they don’t have the finished result.

We need to write a detailed plan with sensible estimates for all the costs and timelines. This amongst all the other work that needs to be done … 🙄

⬆️ THIS. I couldn't have said it better myself @nelsonic.

We have to be conscious of the fact that this is our whole capacity for investment at the moment and so our opportunity cost is large. We're choosing to delay starting other things (aside from Braga) for another 3 years at least and taking the risk of losing a chunk if it doesn't go according to plan.

This is all about our appetite for risk. The business plan is the crux 👍

Minor concerns

• Nearest serviceable hospital is 35 mins away
• The trees I saw didn't really seem stable enough to hold a tree house by themselves - we'd essentially need to have a house on stilts and look into the regulation there dwyl/phase-three#114

[nelsonic]

“I would not want to live there full time, but I'd be very happy to spend a couple of weeks there regularly like in Gerês.”

Inês, where do you want to live “full time”? 🤷🏼‍♂️

I know I would much prefer to live somewhere that had fresh/pure air dwyl/phase-three#103, space to grow my own organic food and near-zero noise or light pollution … access to a UNESCO World Heritage site of “Outstanding Natural Beaty” https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1046/

There’s almost no other place in the country that I would rather live. I hate living in the city. The pollution. Trash and cigarette buts on the streets when I go for walks to the park … The noise at all hours that grinds away at my soul… If I could live in a log cabin on a lake for the rest of my life I would be delighted. I’ve lived all my life in tiny apartments in the city. I hate it. Sure it’s convenient to have amenities; but the cost to health both physical and mental substantially outweighs the benefits.

[iteles]

I see this very much as a business opportunity for now - it has to pay itself back for us to consider it because whatever we do with our current resources must do so in order for us to move forward onto the bigger ideas we want to make happen.

My concerns shared around reasons why it should and shouldn't be invested in are focused on this angle, as I believe they should be.

Therefore, arguments like 'it's quiet' should be seen from the perspective of the audience we are catering to rather than 'this is a place we personally will live long term' for now. This was my only point and the only relevant point for this issue too 👌🏻

[nelsonic]

@iteles the "business opportunity" is both obvious and a misnomer IMO. It's not a traditional business in that we cannot maximise revenue like a big box hotel would. And if we consider this purely from a financial standpoint it won't be nearly as good as other rent-seeking activity.

Sadly, we don't have the cash to burn on buying a place like this as a personal playground or weekend retreat without it making a significant amount of money to "pay for itself". We could easily have that kind of capital ... but that's a discussion for another thread. 🙊

I will attempt to write-up the business plan to convey my thoughts on the revenue potential for the place. 👨‍💻 ⏳

[LuchoTurtle]

@Stephanymtr brought up great points regarding access to basic healthcare but, as someone that lives in Porto and has dealt with urgent care and "centros de saúde", I ought to say the experience here won't probably differ much.

It's 5 minutes away and it can surely provide the standard healthcare we're all entitled to. There's been a handful of times I needed to go to a hospital and the amount of time it took me to get there should be the same as here to "Hospital da Misericórdia" - and without traffic.

Then again, as a second home/summer or winter retreat, it's great. The terrain looks quite manageable to do whatever crosses @nelsonic's mind and has great potential given the location in relation to the Douro river and how quiet it seems to be. It reminds me a lot of Gerês but without the overwhelming presence of tourists and price gauging (and it's much closer to Braga or Porto and with a similar climate).

In my honest opinion, this land/location might seem expensive but seeing how "americanized" Lisbon and Porto are becoming (and gathering a worrying amount of attention, speaking as a local and Portuguese - it's an absolute disaster for us but great for foreigners) and how much gentrification is spreading around Porto's neighbouring cities (Ermesinde, Valongo...), Cinfães will probably have the same fate as Gerês in a couple of years. It only takes one famous footballer to buy a house there 😉 .

[iteles]

Reckon we should write them an email. WTTE:

'Boa tarde Diogo e Ferreira,

Obrigada mais uma vez por nos levarem a ver os dois terrenos a semana passada.

Como vos dissemos na altura, o primeiro terreno que vimos em Marco de Canaveses não foi muito ao encontro do que pretendíamos mas gostamos bastante do segundo, em Souselo com acesso ao Rio Paiva.

Como nos disseram que não há praticamente margem de manobra no preço do terreno, estamos neste momento a rever a parte no financiamento e do que poderíamos fazer com o terreno a médio e longo prazo mas queríamos entrar em contacto convosco para notar o nosso interesse.

Queríamos pedir-vos para este efeito quaisqueres outros documentos a que tenham acesso sobre a propriedade (caderneta, algum documento sobre áreas de construção ou restrições por exemplo) para além do que já está no vosso site.

Pedíamos também que se aparecerem mais compradores nestas próximas semanas, que entrem em contacto connosco primeiro para podermos também definir se sempre conseguimos apresentar uma proposta. Neste momento podemos avançar que a nossa proposta constituiria de dinheiro rapidamente em mão, sem dependências em terceiros e portanto uma transação rápida.

Com os nossos melhores cumprimentos, Nelson e Inês'

@nelsonic I know it might seem like a waste of time but should we try to book to go see it again towards the end of this week, after a week of rain?

[nelsonic]

@LuchoTurtle thank you very much for your thoughts/feedback. It's great to get the perspective of someone who lives in Porto. Indeed the Porto metropolitan area has become a firm favourite with foreigners over the last few years. As noted in https://github.com/dwyl/home/issues/2#issuecomment-1053708688 as of September 2022 Nomad List https://nomadlist.com places Porto as the #5 most "Digital Nomad" friendly city in the World!

Obviously Lisbon is #1 🥇 but that's just because they got a head-start. 😜 The point is that Porto has risen rapidly through the ranks and is a very popular destination for international remote workers.

Your assessment is 100% correct: it's only a matter of time before these short-drive-to-Porto properties become totally unaffordable to local people. The data/evidence is clear: the prices are being pushed up fast!

I'm currently working on writing a plan for how we can afford to acquire this 💸 as I think this kind of waterfront land bordering a nature reserve will become increasingly rare. 💰

"Buy land, they're not making it anymore." ~ Mark Twain

Up the river is "Passadiços de Paiva": http://www.passadicosdopaiva.pt/en

Here's a Map of our most frequently visited places in PT:

@iteles what other questions do you feel need to be answered by a proposal for considering this land?

[nelsonic]

@iteles as you can imagine I'm super keen to do a more in-depth visit, look at the paperwork and even meet the current owners. I would exclude the part about "mais compradores". Just say: we need to review our finances with our accountant to see if we can put together an offer. Please come sit next to me when you can so we can get this sent.

[nelsonic]

I'm particularly keen on knowing from the current owners if the property is considered "Public interest" or "Municipal interest" because of its' location ... if it is, there will be more scrutiny of what we are doing ... https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifica%C3%A7%C3%A3o_do_patrim%C3%B3nio_em_Portugal#Im%C3%B3vel_de_Interesse_P%C3%BAblico

As noted above, the local Village where the land is based is called "Souselo": https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souselo

They are keen to encourage new residents in their village: https://jf-souselo.pt/apoios/nascer-em-souselo "principais objetivos aumentar a população e ajudar a fixar os mais jovens na freguesia"

[iteles]

New email proposal based on our conversation at lunch that we do want to go and see the land after the one week of rainfall:

Boa tarde Diogo e Ferreira,

Obrigada mais uma vez por nos levarem a ver os dois terrenos a semana passada.

Como vos dissemos na altura, o primeiro terreno que vimos em Marco de Canaveses não foi muito ao encontro do que pretendíamos mas gostamos bastante do segundo, em Souselo com acesso ao Rio Paiva.

Como nos disseram que não há praticamente margem de manobra no preço do terreno, estamos neste momento a rever a parte no financiamento e do que poderíamos fazer com o terreno a médio e longo prazo mas queríamos entrar em contacto convosco para notar o nosso interesse.

Queríamos pedir-vos para este efeito quaisqueres outros documentos a que tenham acesso sobre a propriedade (caderneta, algum documento sobre áreas de construção ou restrições por exemplo) para além do que já está no vosso site.

Para além disto, gostávamos de visitar novamente o terreno no fim desta semana se possível, de preferência na sexta-feira de manhã ou à tarde para revermos tudo, particularmente após esta semana de chuvadas!

Com os nossos melhores cumprimentos, Nelson e Inês'

[iteles]

On https://github.com/dwyl/phase-three/issues/116#issuecomment-1237000823

@iteles what other questions do you feel need to be answered by a proposal for considering this land?

My 2 concerns remain exactly the same, I don't have any others: the land on which we can build permanent structures is tiny so we have to be super careful about the laws around things like tiny houses and that the numbers have to add up even if we can't put more than a couple of tiny houses on the property because we could get hit with an uncooperative town council at any time.

If this is a business, even if it's out of sight, I guarantee the câmara in such a small area that doesn't have many businesses will make it their business to know everything. It has to be beyond reproach.

Once we've worked through those two things, then a proposal is the easy part!

[nelsonic]

@iteles thanks for updating the email copy. Sent it & CC'd you. ✉️

Ok. I have added sections to my doc addressing your two concerns (which I share and agree need to be carefully considered...)

[nelsonic]

Portugal's Douro River flows like liquid gold: https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/portugal-douro/index.html

"The Douro cuts across northern Portugal, snaking 200 miles from rugged wilderness on the Spanish frontier to the old city of Oporto and the Atlantic beyond. Grapes grown on its steeply rising banks have been sending forth legendary port wines for centuries. It may be the world's most beautiful wine region."

[nelsonic]

@iteles we got a reply from Ferreira Pinto:

“encontrámo-nos na próxima Sexta-feira, ao início da tarde, às 14h30, na propriedade. Nessa altura entregamos os documentos que dispomos da quinta e explicaremos o que houver para explicar”

Calendar invite to follow. 📆 P.S. really wish people would learn to reply-all … I’ve CC’s you each time and they only ever reply to me. 🤦🏻

[iteles]

Aaaaaah shucks. I've just seen I have a doctor's appointment that day which will be nigh on impossible to reschedule (in fact, the next availability is end of October so that's an impossibility).

I took the liberty of calling Ferreira Pinto to reschedule for the morning and he said no problem at all, they could do 10h00. I hope that's ok @nelsonic.

https://goo.gl/maps/hAaAL1fkhd4bDER66

[nelsonic]

@iteles thanks for checking your calendar and proactively calling Ferreira Pinto to reschedule. 👌

[nelsonic]

At the time of writing, 270,000 EUR = 234,495 GBP google.com/search?q=270000+eur+to+gbp

Thanks to the political chaos in the UK the Pound has lost 2% value against € in the last 2 weeks! 📉 This is relevant because we have some cash sitting [devaluing with inflation!] in the bank in the UK. 🙄 We were saving it precisely to do our "next project" in PT after @home ... 🤞 Sadly, there's not much we can do about the exchange rate or macro economics in general. 🤦‍♂️

[nelsonic]

This is the map of the area featuring several sightseeing stops and existing accommodation:

Casa da Ilha: https://www.booking.com/hotel/pt/casa-da-ilha-castelo-de-paiva.html

On the higher end, this whole house with

Douro Green: 5 bedrooms (sleeps 10) is available for €600/night https://www.booking.com/hotel/pt/douro-green-house.en-gb.html

Rio Moment's: https://www.booking.com/hotel/pt/rio-moment-39-s.en-gb.html

The availability of existing [very nice] accommodation is a great sign! 🎉 We will not be competing with them per se; we will be offering something quite different. And we will be marketing to a different audience.

More on that in the different offering to follow. ✍️ ⏳

[nelsonic]

Local Construction building materials wholesaler and construction contractor: Custodio De Melo - Sociedade De Construções, Lda.

2 minute drive:

There's a good chance they will be cheaper than the bigger construction retailers like Bricomarché, MaxMat and Leroy Merlin and given the proximity, they might deliver/offload the materials for free. 🤞

If we need something specific that is not available locally, Leroy Merlin in Penafiel is 21kms or 24 mins away: https://goo.gl/maps/B4y8wSWAWBoMQNoCA

[nelsonic]

This is the cheapest option in the area: €120/night for 2 adults and 1 child: Solar Guesthouse Olival da Vinha: https://www.booking.com/hotel/pt/solar-guest-house-olival-da-vinha.en-gb.html

It has nice decor and a good location in the centre of Castelo de Paiva. But it's quite far from the river (no access), doesn't have a pool or other

This is the view from the guest house:

A bit "meh" IMO ...

Then they have a bunch of pictures of the surrounding area:

[nelsonic]

image credit: https://www.countryliving.com/life/travel/g3595/tour-tiny-house-village

[nelsonic]

Went searching for land in the area, this is the only other property that has river access: https://www.idealista.pt/imovel/31966545/

It's much cheaper because: a) it's "Não urbanizável" (meaning nothing can be built on it for the foreseeable future) b) the river access is not well-defined i.e. no ramp or steps c) very overgrown d) no ruins to rebuild; only a tiny picnic table/shelter:

Given that it's ~5km up-river from the land we are considering, if I had the money to "park" I would buy this land and have it as a truly off-grid retreat. But don't have the cash to burn so just sharing this as an FYI.

Pretty much all other land in the area is significantly more expensive per m² and none of it has river access.

[nelsonic]

Ok this place looks pretty good as far as traditional hotels goes: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g1203066-d2590113-Reviews-Octant_Hotels_Douro-Castelo_de_Paiva_Aveiro_District_Northern_Portugal.html

But the cheapest available is €267/night in October. Guess they can charge that because they have an indoor poo + spa. Still, very focused on the luxury end of the market. Unaffordable to most "normies" ...

Then 20 mins drive further up the River Paiva there is "Hotel Rio Moment"s" https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g1203066-d8263244-Reviews-Hotel_Rio_Moment_s-Castelo_de_Paiva_Aveiro_District_Northern_Portugal.html#MAPVIEW

Cheapest available off-season price: €122/night

Location is significantly up-river:

Talk about a winding road:

This is a panorama of their river beach:

Looks great but if you check it out on Google Earth, it's not navegable. i.e. you can do a bit of stand-up-paddle but no boats. This has the benefit of no chance of noise from visiting boats. But it also means you can't go on a personal river cruise ... 🤷

More: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotels-g1203066-Castelo_de_Paiva_Aveiro_District_Northern_Portugal-Hotels.html

[nelsonic]

Today we went to visit the land again.

We spent considerably more time there and asked a load more questions. I took many photos and videos including a drone (aerial) video. Rather than upload a bunch of photos here. I’ve made a public album so @iteles can also share her photos:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/g2iMrYR7GUhXQaJk6

There are over 100 photos in the album already including detailed shots of the terraces, buildings, water access and trees.

After viewing the land and speaking to the agents extensively, they advised on potential “next steps”.

We then headed to the Tiny House builders for an initial meeting. The Architect was lovely, and gave us a good tour of their factory, but he had only recently joined and didn’t have much experience of tiny homes on wheels.

The company we visited has not built a single tiny on wheels and instead of just saying “we don’t have experience with that” he kept pushing us toward an installed Tiny House (on a concrete block).

We have a strong preference for building our tiny houses on wheels because of the legislation described in: dwyl/tiny-house#21

Building on wheels has additional advantages beyond regulations; namely an enforced maximum weight constraint that requires us to to be focused about what we put in the house.

We can definitely consider an installed Tiny House, especially if we get planning permission for it from the council by submitting a project plan. But there is zero guarantee that it will be approved and by submitting plans we are drawing attention to ourselves …

[nelsonic]

https://riversidehousesdalyan.com/riverside-cafe/

Note: not saying we're going to do this. It's just a "mood board". 👍

[nelsonic]

At the time of writing, the journey from the land to OPO (Porto - Francisco Sá Carneiro) Airport is quoted by Google Maps as 51 mins https://goo.gl/maps/urPB4byXosyShyJL7 But it depends on the time of day because there can be traffic on the country roads. When I've viewed this map I've seen it as low as 44 mins and up to 57 mins.

If we needed to be there in a hurry, we would take the highway with tolls. Then on the way back we would take the N108 which is slightly longer (distance & time) to avoid the tolls.

[nelsonic]

Existing vegetable growing on the land:

[nelsonic]

The Pure Portugal Listing isn't great ... https://www.pureportugal.co.uk/property/imo270-watermill-farm/

PROPERTY DESCRIPTION

Building area 125m2

Land area 20,000m2?

Property with two 2ha (20.000m2), 2 houses, a ruin, an outbuilding and watermill all for renovation.

The land in its most part consists of terrace fields where we have many fruit trees (oranges, apples, pears, fig, lemons, cherry’s, olives.), vegetable garden, green house and a forest of oak trees, poplars and a few eucalyptus.

It is facing the river in about 150m, in which it is possible to go for a swim or even sail a small boat until the Douro River.

All the property is interlinked with paths that allows the circulation with a tractor or other vehicle until the river.

It has electricity, water from a mine, borehole, water tanks, excellent sun exposure and good access.

Located in a very quiet place without being isolated.

Nearby: Markets, pharmacy, public transport, health service, cafe, restaurant (5min.), Castelo de Paiva village center (12min.), River beaches (12min.), Paiva walkways (25min.), Porto and international airport (50min.).

---

The only good photo not on the other websites/listings is of the forest in what appears to be a wetter season:

Annoyingly, from this photo of the lower terrace, we can see that there were some really nice trees there until recently:

The current owners cut down the trees for firewood! 🤦‍♂️ I almost feel like we would be rescuing this land from them! 😕

[nelsonic]

One of the "down sides" of the land is that it's not near the ocean by car ... 🌊 https://goo.gl/maps/9RSqkwY3JcsfspSQ7 55mins by car (depending on time of day / day of the week ...) 🚗 is quite far to go surfing ... 🏄‍♀️ ⏳

For people who are used to living by/near the sea, this could be a let-down. 😕 But since we will probably have an [electric/sail] boat at some point in the near future ⛵ and there are literally hundreds of places on the calm Douro River we can visit for almost free: 😍 https://www.getyourguide.co.uk/-l4071/

Also worth mentioning this definitely won't be the last property we will buy/own ... 🙅 If we are successful building our App we can probably afford to buy beach-front/view property. But realistically there aren't many larger pieces of beach-front/view land left in PT ... We're not going to find a hectare of land on the coast that we can have a permaculture food forest ... Most costal land has already been divided up into tiny plots and sold to investors, developers or hotels. Also ... sea level rise due to climate change means sea-front/view land will be at risk of floods/storms https://github.com/dwyl/phase-three/issues/16 ... 💭

The more I think about it, land that is protected from coastal storms, ⛈️ has access to a strategic water reservoir, that won't disappear because it's the water source and hydro-power for a major city: 🌇 https://www.aguasdoporto.pt/abastecimento-de-agua/contextualizacao-historica

Basically: the level of water directly in front of the land is highly unlikely to be lower any time soon, if they do let it out it will mean less Hydro-power and lower water reserves for the Porto Metropolitan Area ...

Just wanted to add the "not close to beach" to the list of "cons". 👎 And the immediately say that we will 100% be bringing in a few tons of sand (it's surprisingly cheap e.g. €29/ton ...)

https://www.leroymerlin.pt/Produtos/Construcao/Cimentos-betao-agregados/Areias/WPR_REF_16009791

and making our own private river beach with zero wind or salt water ... 🏖️ Stand-up paddle boards, canoes and no noisy people smoking and partying nearby ... 💭 I know it's not "the same" ... there won't be waves ... But we can certainly get Electric Hydrofoil Surfboards https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/uk/electric-hydrofoil-surfboard/ Which IMO is a pretty close substitute for surfing in the ocean. 😜

[nelsonic]

The number 1 "family park" attraction on Trip Advisor in PT https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractions-g189100-Activities-c57-t45-Portugal.html

Is a man-made concrete water park in Vila Nova de Cerveira ... https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g1190976-d10411750-Reviews-Parque_de_Lazer_de_Castelinho-Vila_Nova_de_Cerveira_Viana_do_Castelo_District_N.html In fact I think it looks quite good for something manufactured, it even has mini-golf:

But if you scroll through all the top child-friendly/focussed attractions in PT, there's almost nothing in nature ... And there's nothing even resembling a pick-your-own permaculture food forest. I think we can build something truly special/unique that would rocket to the top of TripAdvisor. But we could keep it to ourselves for the first few years while the trees/vines and soil is establishing.

[nelsonic]

Apparently "Team Cooking" is a thing for companies now: http://riodoprado.pt/team-cooking/

[nelsonic]

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/61a5d4e9494f46c2b520a984b2398f3b

Love they don't bother to label PT as a distinct country from SPAIN on the map ... 😜

Basically Norther Portugal has the same climate as Norther California / Oregon in the US. Which are the regions of the states with the highest crop yields.

[nelsonic]

I feel the need to do "more research" on this ...

Firstly, what else is available in the local area so we have a cost for comparison for land price?

This property in Souselo is 10,900m2 and is on sale for €100k - no river access: https://www.imovirtual.com/pt/anuncio/terreno-souselo-cinfaes-ID15tbY.html#5840654d42

That's pretty much it in Souselo right now ... 🤷‍♂️

If we widen the search to all of Cinfaes: This land is 20000m2 has river-access but not navegable and costs €198k: https://www.olx.pt/d/anuncio/venda-de-terreno-com-casa-IDFWH2J.html

This land has river access but is "rustic" i.e. no ruin to re-built and little chance of planning permission: https://www.imovirtual.com/pt/anuncio/venda-terreno-com-frente-rio-douro-espadanedo-cinfaes-ID146zo.html

It's it's further away from the Airport/City ...

This last one is an example of what the land/farm could be worth with a family home, pool and parking on it:

This 4 bed (390 m²) country house has a river view but no access. 14 000 m² land€650k https://www.imovirtual.com/pt/anuncio/casa-de-campo-vista-rio-douro-portugal-cinfaes-douro-ID16nzC.html

I honestly think that if we build a decent modern house, a pool and a pontoon on the river the land we are considering will easily be worth more than a Million to the "right" buyer. Not saying that I would sell it. Just that that's the worst-case-scenario IMO. 💭

[iteles]

I would note that this last one worth €650k has a house that is 3 times the size of the combined (i.e. TOTAL) area of construction allowed on the Souselo riverfront land.

The amount of allowable construction area has always been this land's only problem really.

Good idea to do more research for price comparisons 👍

[nelsonic]

@iteles yeah, but who needs a 390 m² country house that only has 4 bedrooms?! 🤷‍♂️ Our London flat is 104m² and has 4 bedrooms ... yes the rooms are "small" but how big do rooms need to be?!

If we focus on building outdoor spaces https://github.com/dwyl/phase-three/issues/129 I honestly think we can make something truly special.

If we renovate the mill on the lower terrace to be an AirBnB/Booking.com-able family holiday cottage with river access, I think this whole thing can easily pay for itself without any other sources of revenue!

[nelsonic]

This is a tiny piece of land (just 686 m²) but the location is amaze: https://www.olx.pt/d/anuncio/terreno-com-casa-para-reconstruir-IDHifhy.html

The house to be restored is only 150 m² but it's right next to the existing dock:

So for the "right" person who wants to have their own boat on the Douro River, it could be worth this €400k ... Personally it has zero appeal to me because the land is so tiny. But the proximity to the Train station would make it "commutable" into Porto ...

[nelsonic]

River view but no access 7.620m2 for €200k: https://www.imovirtual.com/pt/anuncio/terreno-junto-ao-rio-douro-ID197Wi.html

On the train line:

No thank you.

[nelsonic]

Very strange shaped land miles from the river

Questionable interior:

Why do most people not have any taste? 🤷‍♂️

This kitchen was dated before they finished building it:

Anyway, this is just to have an idea of the price for a similar size of land but with no river access ...

[nelsonic]

2 905 m² of land with river access 241 m² of house in need of re-build €580k https://www.imovirtual.com/pt/anuncio/quinta-t3-para-venda-ID195CT.html

Ancede e Ribadouro is quite a lot further from Porto than Souselo:

The land is tiny the house is not habitable and it costs more than double what we're looking at.

[nelsonic]

@iteles this is what I'm talking about: 152,90 m² Modern house sitting on 10 285 m² of land (with No River Access!) €850k https://www.imovirtual.com/pt/anuncio/quinta-para-venda-ID195Ci.html

The architects have done a decent job of making a nice-looking house but it has many design flaws I'm not going to sit here and pick at ... the point is this: The house is 152 m². Land has no river access. Further from the airport and €850k. 💰

[nelsonic]

5 500 m² (meh) Land. 144 m² (meh) House. Miles from the river. Further from the Airport/City. €390k. https://www.imovirtual.com/pt/anuncio/quintinha-no-douro-baiao-ID141oM.html

[nelsonic]

Slightly more land 35 000 m², comparatively small house 140 m² river frontage. €3 700 000 (yes, €3.7 Million!!)

Horrible house that needs to be put out of it's misery ...

Obviously at this price they are hoping to sell it to a football player ... The location is further from Porto/OPO than Souselo:

It won't sell for this money, but this is what the estate agent thinks it's worth ... 🙄