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Translating the black speech in FOTR Disc 1 & 2 #1

Open genekellyjr opened 1 year ago

genekellyjr commented 1 year ago

I think a fair amount of the black speech can be translated. I have 0 experience translating any Tolkien languages.

Black Speech Words

Here is a list of all known words: https://web.archive.org/web/20180501031101/http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/o2.htm

Here is the soundtrack translations (last line of BLACK SPEECH RING-VERSE used it seems) https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/pdf/fotr_annotated_score_2.pdf

Disc 1

Ring debut

Saruman & palantir

Second listen gets me az-gul oriak still not sure, can't fit any words yet. It may be built too custom to piece together from the few things I have access to. Something about orcs and gul which are entralled people (or modifies words like nazg (ring) to get nazgul)? Per https://web.archive.org/web/20180501031101/http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/o2.htm uruk is a known word but it's not said like that.

Nazgul near the ring on Weathertop

Per https://subscene.com/subtitles/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-fellowship-of-the-ring/english/1913639 it's clear that there is a gûm before the ishi, which better matches https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm #40 anyway! Opted for lower case void per the translation in #40.

Nazgul going for the ring

I am not sure if it is the Witch-king (is that him? there's a bunch of em) whispering the following lines or the Ring. The subtitles have the Ring saying it, but it is more whispery than normal, though maybe that's how it sounds with it on... Outstanding: other whispers may be something?

Boromir tryina get handsy with the ring

https://subscene.com/subtitles/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-fellowship-of-the-ring/english/1913639 helped me find that lil chat I missed, but they got it wrong - it's clearly kelkum. But together it's better!

Gimli smacking the ring

The makha gives it away, per https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/pdf/fotr_annotated_score_2.pdf, but the end is tough. I went with "Sherkuk" based on https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_soundtrack_fotr.htm#ring and I assumed the "k" was weak or cut off, it makes a workable threat to Gimli from the Ring. (smack talk!)

This is one isn't settled yet. The "k" isn't there but the "sherku" is def there.

The Ring rudly whispering dark secrets to Frodo while Elrond talks

https://subscene.com/subtitles/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-fellowship-of-the-ring/english/1913639 has it saying "Ash nazg durbatuluk" but I can't pick it out. There's maybe "Ash nazg" but the rest idk. For now I leave it at spooky whispers.

Solved in proceeding comment.

The Ring reminding us where the fiery chasm from whence it came is

There may be others I missed, and I neglected any that sounded like true whispers.

Disc 2

Frodo popping the Ring on

1:16:58,088 --> 1:16:59,274

VOICE OF THE RING [IN BLACK SPEECH]: <i> Here...
(Akha...)</i>

Sounds like "cock", Sauron's probably not that gauche though.

After seeing https://subscene.com/subtitles/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-fellowship-of-the-ring/english/1913639 I'm confident I can make out Akha, so Here. Makes sense for the later threat. Lots of echoes but it's the only word and shows up near to https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm, and the film makers stick to provided phrases closely.

1:17:00,643 --> 1:17:04,630

VOICE OF THE RING: <i> ...only death.
(...ashi gurum.)</i>

The reference subtitle translation I'm using has this [this being A'ghi gûr'ruzh. which is now not used], it's not black speech that I can find. Any insights welcome.

Re-listening it's 100% Ashi gurum. the A'ghi gûr'ruzh. in the reference subtitle translation must've cooked something up. Per https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm Ashi gurum. means only death. Maybe they will fall (from the ref sub trans) was too on the nose...

genekellyjr commented 9 months ago

On the outstanding Saruman & palantir at 1:09:05 to 1:09:08:

Az-gul is clear. Per https://web.archive.org/web/20180501031101/http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/o2.htm gûl is "wraith". Az, not sure. Could be a cut off Nazgul (Ringwraith of course) - maybe trying to distance from saying Ringwraith explicitly but making a new "phrase" out of it to mean Sarumon?

The last word I am guessing it's saying something about the orcs, since that's what's going on. Only word that's near is "uruk" but the word said definitely has an extra syllable, that oriak or uriak. It could be ended with an -ul (them) but still not a plain "uruk". Def something about orcs though.

Maybe like "Wraith, orcs" with the implication Sarumon being equivalent to a Ringwraith since he's been corrupted? But just conjecture. Needs more insights.

genekellyjr commented 8 months ago

New part, during Gandalf's scene where he chants at the Council of Elrond - there's overlain words from the ring. I'm juicin so hard at this point that we can cook it up.

53
01:38:59,507 --> 01:39:02,809
[CHANTS IN BLACK SPEECH] One Ring to rule them all...
(Ash Nazg durbatulûk...) <i>()</i>
54
01:39:03,186 --> 01:39:07,117
...One Ring to find them...
(...Ash Nazg gimbatul...)

This set is the hardest. I think the voice of the Ring is saying "Ash Nazg durbatulûk" right after Gandalf since there's a clear "tuluk" and it doesn't sound thraky before that so only durb is left. To me it sounds like "im azz dulukuluk" but I could buy that it's a heavily distorted "Ash Nazg durbatulûk" - the syllables are there.

While Gandalf says "gimbatul" the voice of the Ring REALLY sounds like it's saying "beech". I cannot fit that to anything, sadly. I'm going to leave that one blank.

55
01:39:07,142 --> 01:39:10,025
...One Ring to bring them all... <i>...Seven dwarf-lords' blood...</i>
(...Ash Nazg thrakatulûk...) <i>(...Ombi kuzddurb sherkuk...)</i>

"Ombi kuzddurb sherkuk" is the clearest, it's mincing words from https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_soundtrack_fotr.htm#ring with notably "kuzddurbagu" modified. The "-u" at the end of " kuzddurbagu" is a preposition 'for, to' so that's gone. So is "-ag", not sure about that. The word is "khuzd" (dwarf) + "durbag" (ruler) + "-u" (for). Guess "-ag" converts "durb-" (to rule) into a noun. Anyway I don't hear the "b" in "kuzddurb" but I put it since it's obviously an important part of the word and prob just got cut off or something.

Now what it means. Ombi - seven (ez pz) kuzddurb - dwarf-lords (pretty ez pz, just missing that "-bag" but it's prob fine) sherkuk - your blood (again, pretty ez pz)

So "seven dwarf-lords' blood" or something like that. Keeps it in order of the words, meaning is there, the words have been finessed to fit (they don't have an "of" and the "your" is gonezo).

56
01:39:13,039 --> 01:39:17,027
...and in the darkness bind them. <i>(In the cold, for the Dark Lord in the dark)</i>
(...agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.) <i>(...Kelkum-ishi, Burz-Durbagu, burzum-ishi...)</i>

Very fun part of this - Gandalf and the voice of the Ring come together on "burzum" and the Ring doesn't actually say "-ishi" at all.

Anyway, "Kelkum-ishi" is a best guess. There's a "k" sound and it definitely ends with "-ishi". So it's probably "Kelkum-ishi".

Kelkum-ishi -> "kelk" (cold) + "-um" (-ness) + "ishi" (in) = in the cold(ness) Burz-Durbagu -> "Burz" (Dark) + "Durbag" (Ruler) + "-u" (for, to) = For the Dark Lord burzum-ishi - "burz" (dark) + "-um" (-ness) + "ishi" (in) = in the dark(ness)

Whip it together:

Kelkum-ishi, Burz-Durbagu burzum-ishi "In the cold, for the Dark Lord in the dark"

Or something like that.

genekellyjr commented 8 months ago

New part, I'm crunked on black speech today.

The Ring rudly whispering dark secrets to Frodo while Elrond talks

Clearly not that.

I do hear "darulu" at the end. There's a clear "-ishi". Together we get a classic:

Daghburz-ishi makha gulshu darulu.

1088
01:41:44,506 --> 01:41:45,826
THE RING: <i> In the Land of Mordor...
(Daghburz-ishi...)</i>

1089
01:41:45,850 --> 01:41:49,687
Only there can it be unmade.
<i> ...where shadows lie. (...makha gulshu darulu.)</i>
genekellyjr commented 8 months ago

So to recap once more, the main remaining bit is:

Saruman & palantir

Second listen gets me az-gul oriak still not sure, can't fit any words yet. It may be built too custom to piece together from the few things I have access to. Something about orcs and gul which are entralled people (or modifies words like nazg (ring) to get nazgul)? Per https://web.archive.org/web/20180501031101/http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/o2.htm uruk is a known word but it's not said like that.

Az-gul is clear. Per https://web.archive.org/web/20180501031101/http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/o2.htm gûl is "wraith". Az, not sure. Could be a cut off Nazgul (Ringwraith of course) - maybe trying to distance from saying Ringwraith explicitly but making a new "phrase" out of it to mean Sarumon?

The last word I am guessing it's saying something about the orcs, since that's what's going on. Only word that's near is "uruk" but the word said definitely has an extra syllable, that oriak or uriak. It could be ended with an -ul (them) but still not a plain "uruk". Def something about orcs though.

Maybe like "Wraith, orcs" with the implication Sarumon being equivalent to a Ringwraith since he's been corrupted? But just conjecture. Needs more insights.

Maybe

"Ash-gûl uruku"

Ash - one gûl - wraith uruku - uruk (orc) + "-u" (to, for)

To roughly yield "One wraith to Uruks" (assuming Uruk-hai term not yet coined)

Not feeling Ash, probably cut off Nazgul. Still not there - too many syllables unaccounted for.

genekellyjr commented 6 months ago

Added in an extra set of Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul since this vid https://youtu.be/fzjAQUMLoT0?si=eC-0oElmiFcqhnBt&t=599 has ?better? sound mixing that lets you hear the ring better than what I have going on. Not sure, I don't care to find out right now but maybe sometime I'll see why you can hear it better there (sound editing? idk how to reproduce that)

genekellyjr commented 6 months ago

https://github.com/genekellyjr/LOTR-Subs/issues/1#issuecomment-1786010998 back to this one, https://youtu.be/fzjAQUMLoT0?si=vW7On87WYNC3yNCw&t=976 has it pretty good.

Only part I didn't dig was the kilmi-nudu bit - I think it's cut off, and to keep it symmetrical with the dwarf one I left it out. The vid is much more clear on the ring stuff than my bluray ones (is it the 5.1 -> stereo conversion messing with it?) - nubin sherkuk is there for sure twice. Updated to match what it really was saying.