Start showing some craft and office POIs

[kocio-pl]

I think we should show not just shops and amenities, but also some objects with craft=* and office=* key. Case by case analysis is probably needed to know which we want to show and how - sometimes the same icon and/or color may be used as with already rendered POIs, but when it doesn't match, maybe generic black/brown/violet dot and label would work.

Looking at the most popular POIs from these categories:

• craft (above 1k of uses):
  • carpenter - icon needed
  • shoemaker - brown icon, probably not the same as shop=shoe
  • photographer - probably the same as shop=photo
  • electrician - brown flash icon
  • brewery - icon needed
  • tailor - icon needed, probably the same as shop=tailor
  • plumber - icon needed
  • metal_construction - icon needed
  • confectionery - maybe the same as shop=confectionery, but brown or black?
  • gardener - maybe the same as shop=garden_centre, but brown?
• office (above 5k uses):
  • company - maybe generic black dot from z>=19?
  • government - brown generic dot or government icon
  • estate_agent - icon needed, violet as shops
  • yes - generic black dot (with name)
  • insurance - icon needed
  • administrative - brown generic dot or town hall icon

[matthijsmelissen]

See also #108.

[pnorman]

Given we already have too many different icons, we need to be careful about this.

We also need consider where we're going cartographically. For a general purpose map, I would be against rendering office=yes.

[polarbearing]

amenity-brown is mostly dedicated towards touristic/cultural features (see also #1624), it should not be expanded to commercial activities as in crafts.

[kocio-pl]

@polarbearing This interpretation is too narrow - what about post office, town hall, police station, fire station or even courthouse? Amenity is all about different services, while shop is all about buying goods. That was my conclusion when thinking about where the bank/atm belongs and now it makes a lot of sense for me.

@pnorman You're right, after leaving safe shops/amenities area we're on terra incognita and we have to watch our steps carefully. I am not against rendering office=yes, but I definitely want to take some precautions here (which I didn't mentioned just to keep the list compact):

• I would do it at the lowest possible level (z>=19)
• I would do it after gaining some experience with other craft/office POIs

Cartographically there's not too much things on highest levels to show and office=yes may be as useful for some people as shop=yes.

[vince-from-nice]

:+1: I completely agree, the possibility to view office POIs would be something very valuable for me.. even at Z=18 ! :)

[planemad]

^ especially office= government which is of public importance

https://twitter.com/kmohankar/status/690738296314462209

[matkoniecz]

copy from #1966

for craft=brewery - it is for places

• where it is impossible to buy anything (otherwise it would have pub or bar icon or at least would be tagged as shop)
• it is impossible to visit them for tour or something similar (it would be tourism=museum/attraction)
• are not big enough to draw even small landuse
• are even not filling entire building (building names are rendered)

I am unsure whatever rendering name would be valuable (alcohol-related icon would be clearly misleading as it is not bar/pub/shop so it is unacceptable).

[matkoniecz]

In general - I strongly oppose new icon, labels are likely to be useful for offices. I am unsure about labels for craft.

[kocio-pl]

As I look here now, designing right icons may be hard, so I would start with showing at least labels with dots for those keys.

[SomeoneElseOSM]

I'd agree that "labels with dots" for offices makes sense too. Over at https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua I mapped a long list of nonspecific shop, office, healthcare and leisure items to purple, black, pink and green dots. It probably wouldn't be feasible or desirable to have as along a list in osm-carto, but I think the approach makes sense.

[kocio-pl]

I think the difference between amenity, shop, craft and office is somewhat blurred - especially we don't know what "amenity" really is (and that's probably just a legacy general type for POIs). But we also don't know what is "craft" - it can be "amenity" or "shop" if we think about tailor for example, since it can be a workshop alone (that is strictly craft), but also the place you can bring your coat for repair ("shop" as in hairdresser currently, but if you think that "shop is all about goods and amenity for services" that would be "amenity" for sure).

The result is that I don't want to be strict about icons for those types. I would put:

• (brown) paragraph sign for a lawyer, no matter if it's tagged as an "office" or "amenity"
• (brown) needle/button for a tailor, no matter if it's "craft" or "amenity"
• (violet?) house icon for real estate agency, no matter if it's "office" or maybe "shop"

because for simple map user these are typical, easily recognizable POIs and it's just our internal problem that we don't have clear ontology they could fit in.

So I would propose to start rendering craft and office as a dot+label, but try to make icons case by case if it's possible, not looking too much into the tagging schemes.

[liondog]

Whats the current state? Any further discussions? Carto currently shows house numbers instead of names. This leads to repeated house numbers in case of multiple offices. In my eyes a rather bizarre and puzzling rendering result. Wouldn't be a simple dot + name a much better solution?

[kocio-pl]

We're discussing implementation details now: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/108#issuecomment-328904162.

[Tomasz-W]

I think we should discuss in which cases #3061 is enough, and in which cases we still need an separate icon.

[Tomasz-W]

Icons proposals for some craft=* tags:

• craft=brewery
• craft=carpenter
• craft=electrician (-> I'm not sure what is this tag for - a repair point, where you can bring broken device, or kind of office for workers which are typically working outside; if it's a second option, I think a dot would be enough here) (cable) (flash)
• craft=plumber (tap) (tools)
• craft=shoemaker
• craft=tailor
• craft=metal_construction (-> same thing as in craft=electrician)
• craft=winery (it wasn't mentioned here, but it has 4,4k uses now, so I think we should discuss a separate icon)
• office=* rendering will be resolved soon by https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3061 (I don't think we need separate icons for estate agents and insurance)

[dieterdreist]

2018-02-14 11:26 GMT+01:00 Tomasz Wójcik notifications@github.com:

Icons proposals for some craft=* tags:

very nice, I like almost all of them, for the electrician I prefer the cable, the flash could be used for power stations and substations. plumber: tap shoemaker is the only one I find hard to read.

[Tomasz-W]

for the electrician I prefer the cable, the flash could be used for power stations and substations.

I though the same thing, so I did a review od a power=* key. There are only 2 tags which we should consider for flash icon:

• power=plant -> it's rendered as industrial area, so there will be problem with labeling on size (there are many tags with this problem, but discussion about it stuck)
• power=substation -> I've chcecked my neighbourhood and some other places, and I think there are too many substations for rendering them (remember that it's not a common-needed feature)

shoemaker is the only one I find hard to read.

I'll work on that.

[andrzej-r]

There are in fact quite a few office tag values, some of which could benefit from having icons. I can't check it right now but government, lawyer, IT sound like potential targets.

I would indeed prefer to have #3061 merged first and work on icons later, but that's mostly due to my interest in fixing the mapping feedback issue, not because I don't like icons.

[Tomasz-W]

• craft=shoemaker fixed a little bit:
• craft=winery icon proposal (grapes) (barrel)

[kocio-pl]

Quick remarks:

• craft=winery - I would cut the top of grape cluster, so it will have more triangle shape and maybe bigger leaf (currently it's closer to ananas), but it's still more clear to me than a barrel
• craft=tailor - perfect for me!
• craft=plumber - 1) is better for me
• craft=carpenter - OK
• craft=shoemaker - OK
• craft=brewery - I can't recognize it

[geowas-github]

Some remarks:

• carpenter I don't recognize. I think the saw alone could be do the job,
• winery with grapes is good (however the grapes could be improved maybe... - but they are also ok as they are)
• for the electrician: maybe you can combine the cable/plug or maybe a light bulb with a tool (skrewdriver?). I always like the combination of tool + material/produce/thing being worked on.
• for the plumber I support icon 1.

Shoemaker, tailor and brewery I like.

[Tomasz-W]

• craft=winery v2
• craft=brewery -> it's a fermentation vessel shape (known from old breweries) with beer mug on the right; do you have any idea to make it more readable?
• craft=carpenter -> I like the "X" design, so I would like to stay with both tools
• craft=electrican -> with cable shape there is no space to add tool, and bulb design could be confusing as a lighting-specialized electrican

[kocio-pl]

• craft=winery v2 - perfect for me! :+1:
• craft=brewery - even when I know what it is, I can't recognize it directly; maybe similar design as craft=winery (beer mug and hop)?

[Tomasz-W]

craft=brewery proposals comparsion:

(vessel + mug) (mug + hop) (vessel + hop)

[daganzdaanda]

I'd take vessel + hop before mug + hop. plumber - tap winery v2 - great! shoemaker - fixed version is good (but maybe the shoe shape could be simplified by merging the soles to reduce the anti-alias blur?) All the other icons are very good!

Thanks for all the great work on these icons! Of course the small details can't all fit with the pixel grid, and so the icons won't be as crisp as many of the bold new SVGs. But it's amazing how well the details still are readable. We should do some test runs on real data to see how they look "in the wild".

[kocio-pl]

vessel+hop version mostly works for me too. Maybe mug+hop version would be better if you use this icon (the one you used does look different): https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/symbols/biergarten.svg

@daganzdaanda Would you like to make a test PR and some renderings? I'm surprised that you have never been a code contributor to osm-carto, despite the long history of being active here. :smile:

[daganzdaanda]

I'm surprised that you have never been a code contributor

Yeah, I know ;) The thing is that I already feel I'm spending too much time on OSM stuff... but thank you guys for starting that Docker thing, maybe sometime I can try that.

[kocio-pl]

OK!

We need more active people in this style in general:

• icon (and other cartographic features) designers,
• coders,
• community/discussion moderators (to reach some conclusions),
• simple rendering testers,
• code reviewers and cleaners (SQL+CartoCSS),
• PR mergers/release managers (only team members can do that)...

Any activity makes us stronger, but currently we have enough bug reports, nice icons and quite conclusive discussions, I can merge the PRs and try to make monthly releases, so the weakest link is preparing code for PRs at the moment.

If anyone wants to try, I can help to start it. In my opinion working Docker containers are really important step toward healthy project, yet we need some people to play with it. :smile:

[Tomasz-W]

Gist links:

• craft=brewery: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/4c4febd2f19dbfd8ec201100b54946ea
• craft=carpenter: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/fd54bb942d48b0d17931484401a7909b
• craft=electrician (both icons - cable and flash): https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/17e626924b80a3a1e009e80d07cbceab
• craft=plumber: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/b2a18f09b17c6e6fcbe1046a13e39f65
• craft=shoemaker: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/0d723d19388ff4c0502d3a18d5750c88
• craft=tailor: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/7227fe37f9e4a7e945a977023af84b25
• craft=winery: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/48e9cfadc53b5cfe99bb34fec08da5f7

[lakedistrictOSM]

All of @Tomasz-W 's icons above look good, the only one that might be too complex and less recognisable is the brewery icon.

Maybe a conical flask and beer bottle? Or just a barrel? http://g0cqw3d93gz443uvqwvpy0l8.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/themes/bbwnew/img/icons/brewery.svg or https://d30y9cdsu7xlg0.cloudfront.net/png/9236-200.png ?

[james2432]

Basic query for craft added(tailor) can add others once approved

[Tomasz-W]

As I understood, all from https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1697#issuecomment-367432772 was accepted. @kocio-pl ?

[james2432]

Are we adding: metal_construction gardener confectionery? If so what icons are needed? Is brown the colour we are going with because it's a service?

[lakedistrictOSM]

Are we having a generic dot/symbol for other craft values?

[Tomasz-W]

We haven't discuss it yet, but for me there are only 2 colours to consider:

• amenity-brown
• man_made-grey

The rest (basing on current state and pending discussions): violet is for shops, blue for offices, black for administrative offices https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3061, green for leisure elements and red would be propably a healthcare color someday https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2938, orange (the only one colour don't used now and didn't considered for other features, but it wouldn't match craft=* tag)

[polarbearing]

amenity-brown is heavily loaded already, man-made-grey would suit.

[kocio-pl]

I was thinking about using kind of orange for eating places once, see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2824#issuecomment-328521710.

[Tomasz-W]

@lakedistrictOSM @polarbearing @kocio-pl

@james2432 is waiting with https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126 :) We have to decide what to do with some tags, my proposition is:

• craft=metal_construction -> grey dot
• craft=gardener -> grey garden centre icon (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/symbols/shop/garden_centre.svg) or grey dot
• craft=confectionery -> grey confectionery icon (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/symbols/shop/confectionery.svg) or grey dot

What do you think?

[kocio-pl]

It might have sense, but I have to see how does it look like.

[lakedistrictOSM]

I think we should avoid grey dots where possible because they might look like bollards.

I'd suggest a generic "craft" icon of a spanner and a hammer similar to the one iD uses. Food and drink "crafts" like confectionery can have their own icons. If we use the current confectionery icon (cake) for craft=confectionery then we should design a new icon for shop=confectionery (probably a sweet like the .fr map or one of the ones suggested in https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1534#issuecomment-100043472)

[Tomasz-W]

I think we should avoid grey dots where possible because they might look like bollards.

They don't because craft=* node is usually on building area, so it would be propably intuitive that is not a bollard there.

I'd suggest a generic "craft" icon

As I know, we don't use generic icons for whole keys in osm-carto

If we use the current confectionery icon (cake) for craft=confectionery then we should design a new icon for shop=confectionery

There are examples of the same icon used in different colour for different features (eg. green picnic sites and brown picnic tables or brown art centres and violet art shops)

[james2432]

so is it man-made-grey or gastronomy-orange?

[kocio-pl]

It's testing time...

[james2432]

added screenshots in pull request for all three colours

[kocio-pl]

It's shown here: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-387588250.

[james2432]

@pnorman doesn't want strokes in svgs

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

On 9. May 2018, at 02:47, James notifications@github.com wrote:

so is it man-made-grey or gastronomy-orange?

it could be business pink like the shops.

[kocio-pl]

There are probably no strokes in our icons and these are only settings for strokes, which are placed by Inkscape automatically.

[Tomasz-W]

Any ideas for craft=metal_construction icon?

[james2432]

@Tomasz-W a couple of I beams stacked on top of eachother?