OpenBVE perhaps return to Debian again...!?

ginga81 commented 5 years ago

Relative with #261.

Today, via Twitter, a Debian Developer henrich is conversation to me. https://twitter.com/henrich

He say that if you mails to Debian's WNPP, he becomes to the sponser. Please send WNPP to submit@bugs.debian.org.

If recoverly to debian, you(Mr.leeser3) can continue to registration to debian directly.

At https://www.clear-code.com/blog/2014/3/7.html, the WNPP's prototype mail foramat is written.

Additionally, he checked your OpenBVE's .deb, and he advice to me. He say that some files are still not ready for registration. For example, debian/copyright. The deficiency files should to attach based from bellow. http://snapshot.debian.org/package/openbve/1.4.0.10-3/

Additionally, perhaps you are not use official deb packaging tool. If you use official deb creating tool, it is so smart.

I will continue to contact to developper henrich. If you sent to email to submit@bugs.debian.org, please announce to me. I tweet to him.

sladen commented 4 years ago

@s520: 元のテキストを日本語で投稿してください。 (Please post the original text in Japanese).

s520 commented 4 years ago

このやり取りは、ツイッターで日本語で行われました。下記のツイートをみてください。 https://twitter.com/henrich/status/1178305572346585089

sladen commented 4 years ago

Thank, appears to be referring to, Message 8 on:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=927278#8

s520 commented 4 years ago

結局、下記のガイドラインに従わなければならないというのは正しいのですか? https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/copyright-format/1.0/

私たちは、あくまでも削除されたパッケージを元に戻したいだけです! 私は、あなたとhenrichが言うことが異なるので困惑しています。

sladen commented 4 years ago

s520: there is no contradict;

There is only a request for information.
When everyone has the same information,
It becomes possible to start a useful discussion.
Useful discussion normally produces good outcomes.

ginga81 commented 4 years ago

@sladen The fastest way is 'you' see the master and check if it is consistent with the guidelines.

sladen commented 4 years ago

From Debian's perspective, the debian/copyright file is:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/openbve/blob/debian/sid/debian/copyright

Most of which appears to still be as-written 10 years ago; and hopefully the Debian FTP master team would review the information in the same form.

The debian/copyright files porbably needs updating/appending with the new authors/copyright holders.

s520 commented 4 years ago

henrichは全てのファイルにライセンスとauthors/copyright holdersを書くように言いました。あなたの言うことと両方行えば確実になるでしょう。

しかし、問題があります。私はauthors/copyright holdersを"The OpenBVE Project"にしたいと思っています。 henrichはauthors/copyright holdersを"The OpenBVE Project"にすることに疑問を呈しました。これについての、あなたの考えを教えてください。なお、なぜ疑問を呈したのかhenrichは理由を述べませんでした。

sladen commented 4 years ago

Where is the text "The OpenBVE Project"? In:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/openbve/blob/debian/sid/debian/copyright#L8

says:

Copyright: 2008-2012 Michelle Boucquemont
 Anthony Bowden
 Jens Rügenhagen

and:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/openbve/blob/debian/sid/debian/copyright#L217

says:

Copyright: 2009-2012 Paul Sladen

s520 commented 4 years ago

下記のような記述を考えていました。 Copyright: 2008-2012 Michelle Boucquemont Anthony Bowden Jens Rügenhagen, 2019 The OpenBVE Project 現在はオリジナル3以外にも多くの貢献者が存在します。彼らを代表して"The OpenBVE Project"を著作者に加えることは、おかしなことですか?

sladen commented 4 years ago

At the moment, there is no legal entity/company/foundation called "The OpenBVE Project".

On could do something like OpenStreetMap which requires:

"© OpenStreetMap contributors"

as short-hand (abbreviation) + URL link to:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

which contains lots of information about who the contributors are ("Our contributors are thousands of individuals.").

As a first-step, a page like eg:

https://openbve-project.net/copyright

needs creating, which everyone's names on. If that is not possible, it is better to add the exact names to each individual file; showing which files each copyright holder created/modified/edited. (The full Git history may be useful here).

At the moment there is zero copyright iformatin

sladen commented 4 years ago

There is some information at:

s520 commented 4 years ago

分かりました。しかし、これ以上の議論はプロジェクトリーダーの @leezer3 さんの判断が必要です。彼がこのメッセージを確認するまで待ちます。

ginga81 commented 4 years ago

@sladen I want you promice to make sure that you will be contacted immediately. I understand that sometimes forget because we are human, but if it seems that maintenance will not be possible, please contact to leeser3 or project.

sladen commented 4 years ago

At the bottom of:

https://openbve-project.net/

the webpage currently says:

ideally this should be corrected, for example:

© 2019 OpenBVE contributions; and placed in the Public Domain.  Website powered by Jekyll.

Or something like this. The important part is the placing into the Public Domain/BSD-2-line licence.

s520 commented 4 years ago

@sladen さん @ginga81 さんの意見は見ましたか?

I want you promice to make sure that you will be contacted immediately. I understand that sometimes forget because we are human, but if it seems that maintenance will not be possible, please contact to leeser3 or project.

私も同じ意見です。約束してください。

sladen commented 4 years ago

@s520, @ginga81:

Nobody should feel the need to promise anything. People (humans, everyone) do their best—sometimes it takes time.

An important reason for open/Public Domain/Free Software/sharing is that there is no requirement to ask, or re-ask earlier authors. The contributions are, given, forever.

It was ~10 years since OpenBVE was first uploaded to Ubuntu/Debian. It would be wonderful to get OpenBVE back into Debian/Ubuntu, along with even more routes (@leezer3 offered to release some GWR cabs under a proper licence). Please do not worry! We'll get there; it just takes time.

leezer3 commented 4 years ago

First a note: I'm at work & won't really have a chance to properly respond to this discussion until tomorrow at the earliest.

Contributor Lists:

We have a basic list of major contributors in here, but no specifics: https://github.com/leezer3/OpenBVE/blob/master/Contributing.md This should be linked from the website & expaneded in scope a bit by the looks of things- Easy enough.

We could also do with a CLA adding. This has been alluded to in the file above, and all contributors have been asked, but formalise it.

Website:

This can be tweaked, should just be in the Jekyll template.

Legal Entity:

This is a funny one. My instinct is that under UK Law, 'the openBVE Project' would be just fine as a trading name assuming the backend group (us!) exists. Would need to do some research to back that up though.

It really depends what Debian et. al want though- We're only custodians of the name through maintaining the active fork.

s520 commented 4 years ago

@leezer3 I am sorry during your work...

ginga81 commented 4 years ago

@leezer3 Sorry for disturb your work.

leezer3 commented 4 years ago

It doesn't matter :)

What I think is important though is that we all take a step back and think.

A hasty solution is almost never the right one.

BVE was around well before OpenBVE was ever concieved of, and I'm sure a while longer won't hurt.

s520 commented 4 years ago

I agree. I sleep and get calm...

ginga81 commented 4 years ago

I agree with your opinion. At Japan nearly sunrise time. We are going to the bed and sleep. goodnight...

henrich commented 4 years ago

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:42:43 -0700 s520 notifications@github.com wrote:

なお、なぜ疑問を呈したのかhenrichは理由を述べませんでした。

Your attitude is so harmful for me, you said "You said a question, so you SHOULD give more detail about it, you're a blocker for our work".

sigh

It was my fault that I've misread leezer3's post at BTS and did not take any action for months (apologizes), however, I just wanted to do some help to OpenBVE (at that time).

s520, are you some kind of paid customer, or my boss? (or my wife? ;) Should I send a bill?

-- Regards,

Hideki Yamane henrich @ debian.org/iijmio-mail.jp

s520 commented 4 years ago

I just wanted a constructive discussion. Of course I don't want to squeeze what I said, but you didn't apologize on Twitter. So why now say “apologizes”? And I said that “I apologize for making you feel uncomfortable”. This is my clear apology.

ginga81 commented 4 years ago

@leezer3 Please read email that write my personal opinion regarding this matter.

henrich commented 4 years ago

On Tue, 01 Oct 2019 08:03:44 -0700 s520 notifications@github.com wrote:

I just wanted a constructive discussion.

Then please behave so. Please.

I just gave you some question, then you would not say your idea/thought about it, and just claim me to explain the reason the reason why I asked, aggressively.

Well, is it a constructive discussion? NO, clearly not (at least for me). And, you did the same thing, again.

Of course I don't want to squeeze what I said, but you didn't apologize on Twitter. So why now say “apologizes”? And I said that “I apologize for making you feel uncomfortable”. This is my clear apology.

You don't understand what was wrong, just saying "clear apology"... If you get the idea, you wouldn't say so. Why should I explain it as a defendant in a court? (You treat me as it, I'm not sure you're aware of it or not).

To be clear, I don't have any duty to put openbve package to Debian (I'm sorry), just wanted to do some help at that time (yes, at that time). However, it seems that you misunderstand it. Unfortunately, you seem that do not understand people have a different idea, priority, and motivation.

https://github.com/leezer3/OpenBVE/issues/330#issuecomment-536672387

If you forcefully order to do something to someone, you should pay something, or behave to be more polite as someone wants to do so.

-- Hideki Yamane henrich@iijmio-mail.jp

henrich commented 4 years ago

For constructive discussions ;),

debian/copyright should be clear one, better to be machine-readable copyright format 1.0. There's no reason to be old style.
Removing debian directory from master branch is better, it causes conflicts with distro packaging. If you stay it, making a branch for it (maybe ubuntu or something?)
Using CI thing in salsa is good, put debian/salsa-ci.yml I've enabled it in repo.
Anyway, please pull master from github and try to merge it to debian/sid branch, if debian/ directory moves away from master.

leezer3 commented 4 years ago

I've done some work on this today. We're still not quite there, but are somewhat closer to following the standards. (This work has been applied to the current branch- Note that as of 1.7.0 we will not build on anything older than Stretch) The Salsa repo has also been forked, on my end, and I need to figure out the correct way of getting the current branch synced in before I can think about a PR to the main one.

Whilst I'm only loosely following the written Japanese conversation & social nuances (Mostly via translator- I can acceptably follow spoken Japanese TV etc. but not written) it's clear that we all need to step back and think before we write anything. It's incredibly easy for a little thing to turn into a major misunderstanding :)

This also seems an opportune point to again remind all parties involved that nobody is getting paid here, least of all me! Please remember that....

ginga81 commented 2 years ago

A Japanese user, that is Five Motor Sound's creator says that 'You can register to the Snap Store, is it? If so, we can't resume to the Debian, but, we can install to a lot of Linux Distribution, isn' t it?' Can you consider about this ?

leezer3 commented 2 years ago

Interesting thought.

Flatpaks, Snaps et. al are definitely gaining a little in functionality/ support, but they're also a mess internally, and would involve a far larger download size (although we wouldn't be hosting it) as they need to package the complete Mono runtime and associated stuff.

ginga81 commented 2 years ago

How to interact with debian https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ I heard that you need to join the mailing list and request the appropriate forum. He say that he reported JDIM software to Lanuchpad(for Ubuntu's mailing-list), and merged by Yamane. The S520 is still a sick bed, so we haven't taken any action from the Japanese side because as we are committers, but if contact yourself, it may progress.

leezer3 / OpenBVE