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microsoft / xaml-standard

XAML Standard : a set of principles that drive XAML dialect alignment
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Is this repo dead? #230

Closed GeraudFabien closed 5 years ago

GeraudFabien commented 6 years ago

All in the title. Since May 2017 no real news. .... What MS thinks about it? What the community thinks? What "other implementation guys" like Avalon thinks?

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

Hehe @dotMorten the fact someone posted a thread specifically asking if this repo is dead, without any reply for nearly 3 months now from any "ownership" sort of shows why this thing is dead. 😉 This thread shouldn't have even started. Now we all get to enjoy the ramifications. And BTW we are entirely on topic, for once. 🤣 We are all also free to unsubscribe if we do not appreciate the conversations taking place here.

All the dev I know (and myself) defend they're idea with strength.

@GeraudFabien surely. But I don't hold fault for someone blowing off steam in a generalized way, and certainly when it's not towards someone in particular. But that's me, however. If it offends someone it will have to be taken up with the owners of the repo. Wherever they are. 😉

GeraudFabien commented 6 years ago

This repo is already dead. And except if MS add a clear goal and how they will achieve them it will never revive. @dotMorten This is a way of making a "standard actually happen". Only MS can really make a standard. And only MS is disallow to make a standard accept by all the community (because we don't want a standard lead by one but a standard lead by all). If MS want to make this repo happen. All they have to do is to listen to what the community want. These off topic please me in the fact they are United. United in the fact that the current XAML standard is partially wrong. In the poor and cons of other tech. And in the need for a strong cross plateform turn. We are one community. We have one goal. Our way are many. To .Net too make business on that or to died.

The fact is i understand you're point because it's what make me stop following this repo. But there is also to explain "Why so many off topic?". When explain they will have tool to make this repo a new live and start again.

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

As you pointed out a few weeks ago, Build starts on Monday, so hopefully guys like me and @Mike-EEE Mike-EEE will be

... finishing our thoughts in a coherent manner? 😆

dotMorten commented 6 years ago

I wasn't complaining about the thread topic but about all of you going of tangents about JS and other irrelevant stuff. There's been so much of that throughout this repo. Part of it is on Microsoft for not shutting down and keeping code of conduct, but a lot of it is on the trolls too.

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

and other irrelevant stuff

Irrelevant to you maybe. :) When a topic is "Is this repo dead?" it sort of throws the relevancy thing out the window. And so quick to call troll here (not just you, @dotMorten). I have found this thread to be good conversation. Valuable, even. I have even learned a few things here that I wouldn't have if it didn't exist. Oh, and for the record, I have yet to pull out my troll cannon on this repo.

You are right though in that conversations have deviated in other threads here. I don't mind it but I appreciate that you do. 😄

TonyHenrique commented 6 years ago

Let's see BUILD 2018

I think that it will give insights and answers to all this.

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

haha, no warning @crutkas? I thought the established protocol -- which I thought you did a great job executing here -- was to provide a warning (multiple warnings, even!) first and then pull the trigger. @Happypig375's comment was in no way offensive that I can see so I for one would find value in hearing why you thought it was worthy of a delete without warning or explanation, especially when considering the content thus far in this thread. Did you warn @Happypig375 privately or something? Confused here. 😄

Also, since it does seem MSFT employees are indeed monitoring this repo/thread and we have you here... it would be great/awesome to hear an official statement and/or answer to the question posed here by @GeraudFabien.

I hope you can appreciate the optics of ignoring a community altogether only to arrive and delete their posts without explanation, especially when you yourself have done a great job providing warning first and when you have done so, have done a remarkable job replacing the content with the reason for the edit. So, at the least it would seem that there is an inconsistent approach from you here. Please pardon the confusion on my side.

Happypig375 commented 6 years ago

@crutkas Finally seeing some kind of moderator here :laughing:

@Mike-EEE

Did you warn @Happypig375 privately or something?

No, nothing.

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

@Happypig375 I would prefer the interactions involving moderators to be engaging the community, answering their questions, and facilitating dialogue, But yes. indiscriminate deletion of content falls under moderation, too. 😛

crutkas commented 6 years ago

Happy to see healthy discussions, Please be nice.

insinfo commented 6 years ago

@crutkas Is this repo dead?

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

@crutkas Is this repo dead?

Delete once for Yes, delete twice for No. 😆

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

Jokes aside, looks like Noesis has got a WebAssembly sample working in Xaml: http://www.noesisengine.com/webgl/Samples.Buttons.html

They feature a more traditional Xaml model, very closely aligned to WPF.

It is a paid model, but free for the indies. So in the unfortunate case that this repo is dead, there appear to be some solid options emerging. Hopefully //build yields even more. 🤞

dotMorten commented 6 years ago

@jackbond Let me get this right: Microsoft announces highly-requested Feature A, and you interpret that as ignoring/killing Feature B?

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

When you say highly-requested, @dotMorten how are you quantifying this? A UserVoice, by chance? I have not seen anything like this so a link would be useful. My impression is that users wanted a cross-platform WPF, not a .NET Core WPF that can only run on Windows.

dotMorten commented 6 years ago

@mike-eee Don't focus so much on the .NET Core bit, and more on the side-by-side thing. It allows us devs to easier target newer versions of .NET without requiring customers to upgrade .NET Machine wide, or allow customers to have multiple versions installed. If you haven't heard that request, you haven't been paying attention. And no none of this has anything to do with XAML Standard and changes nothing here, as you hopefully remember WPF wasn't on the roadmap for XAML Standard anyway.

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

If you haven't heard that request, you haven't been paying attention

Indeed, I have heard that request, but where is its uservoice? That is usually where these requests are made and why I was asking for a link to establish what what you meant by highly-requested.

And no none of this has anything to do with XAML Standard and changes nothing here

Of course. I am nowhere near concerned with that and would like to think that this thread has become an ad-hoc //build2018 chat room... if that's OK with you. 😆

insinfo commented 6 years ago

I fully agree with you @jackbond

Strip out the Windows specific rendering code (e.g. Silverlight) and give us a version that will run on MacOS and a couple Linux distros. Would that really be so hard? Heck, open source it. After all Microsoft loves open source and Linux now right?

insinfo commented 6 years ago

what they are doing is not what the community wants, the community wants multiplatform GUI (WPF for Mac/Linux)

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2018/05/07/net-core-3-and-support-for-windows-desktop-applications/#comment-516505

carldebilly commented 6 years ago

You may be interested to sneak at our platform: Uno. Works on Wasm, Android & iOS and using the UWP XAML natively.

http://platform.uno/

Also... we'll make it open source in few days!

Carl.

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

Very cool @carldebilly! Thank you for sharing. 😄

Also @jackbond, since it doesn't sound like we're going to get an answer to what "highly-requested" means, let's kindly recall that this is the second time requesting this: https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/3556619-silverlight-6

There was also another vote that started around the time of the Ubiquitous vote, we'll include that as well: https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-ide/suggestions/8912350-bring-windows-10-universal-apps-to-android-and-ios

So a quick tally here:

That's 34,368 votes asking for what MSFT thought was a good idea to sunset in 2011. Now to me, THAT is highly requested. 😄

As an aside, I especially like how they declined the Silverlight 6 idea but decided to put the Ubiquitous .NET Under Review... when both concepts are equivalent.

Also @insinfo that link does not resolve to a comment. 😞

weitzhandler commented 6 years ago

Anything new after BUILD day #1?

On Tue, May 8, 2018, 01:54 Mike-EEE notifications@github.com wrote:

Very cool @carldebilly https://github.com/carldebilly! Thank you for sharing. 😄

Also @jackbond https://github.com/jackbond, since it doesn't sound like we're going to get an answer to what "highly-requested" means, let's kindly recall that this is the second time requesting this:

https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/3556619-silverlight-6

There was also another vote that started around the time of the Ubiquitous vote, we'll include that as well:

https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-ide/suggestions/8912350-bring-windows-10-universal-apps-to-android-and-ios

So a quick tally here:

That's 34,368 votes asking for what MSFT thought was a good idea to sunset in 2011. Now to me, THAT is highly requested. 😄

As an aside, I especially like how they declined the Silverlight 6 idea but decided to put the Ubiquitous .NET Under Review... when both concepts are equivalent.

Also @insinfo https://github.com/insinfo that link does not resolve to a comment. 😞

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/Microsoft/xaml-standard/issues/230#issuecomment-387292869, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AClynGJjZngb38FMU8ZwZ5JLLVD5bbUpks5twTMRgaJpZM4SCk2M .

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

@weitzhandler funny you should ask because I just now saw this: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2018/05/07/introducing-ml-net-cross-platform-proven-and-open-source-machine-learning-framework/

THAT is the best news of //build thus far, IMO. Has nothing to do with Xaml/UI, however. 😉 The value here being that is great to see MSFT thinking .NET-First rather than going off and re-inventing yet another wheel that no one uses suffers from poor adoption as a result. *cough*UWP*cough* (And yeah I know that UWP is ".NET". But it was certainly not .NET-First. The fact that they had to do a very expensive about-face and rewrite everything to be .NET Standard-compliant succinctly speaks to this.)

birbilis commented 6 years ago

I think UWP may be more of a reimplementation of .net concepts over COM (maybe some COM+ too)

WinInsider commented 6 years ago

@birbilis, indeed... UWP, Windows Group at Microsoft (folks who own Windows OS) became very envy of XAML (WPF), which was written in .NET (by different group at MS)... Since Windows Group only had Win32 (flat API surface) they needed to re-imagine Windows for new era, and so took many ideas from .NET, including XAML away from .NET Group for many years (hance no growth in WPF)... However, we should acknowledge that XAML now is embedded part of Windows DNA, in native C++, and will live forever, faster, stronger; nevertheless, UWP is Windows specific API.

UWP is meant to replace inadequate Win32 API stack

birbilis commented 6 years ago

Platform.uno looks interesting, wonder if it is indeed portable uwp (using uwp oop api as platform abstraction). Remember debating with dotMorten on twitter on the possibility of uwp becoming crossplatform/portable

GeraudFabien commented 6 years ago

WPF on .Net core is the worst thinks MS could have done. I just don't understand. I realy hope that Xamarin will not suffer from this decision. Otherwise .Net will not be realy cross plateform (for me) until many years (except for the web part).

Meanwhile Xamarin add a useless CSS feature. I know some people want it. But it was not a priority and to be truth is totally useless for advance developer, add a new language and make the gap between UWP and Xamarin more important.

This two news seal the fact that Xamarin standart is dead.

weitzhandler commented 6 years ago

I wouldn't mind ditching XF as long as there is ANY true UI platform that deploys everywhere (Win, UWP, Droid, iOS, Mac, and WebAsm). But one that deploys same everywhere and is adaptable for responsive design. I'd be happy if it's gonna be WPF. XAML's disadvantage is its lack of Razor-like code blocks, such as foreach loops etc. Still, I like XAML.

weitzhandler commented 6 years ago

@jackbond, it's not that I'd want C# code in my XAML, it's just that there aren't enough converters and data manipulation options out the box.

GeraudFabien commented 6 years ago

@weitzhandler Not really true. You have itemsControl that do foreach well used. In fact I never need a real foreach loop. Can you make an issue where you explain why you need it.

I think's MS port WPF to .Net Core. It's to strengthen UWP by making the "host" of UWP in WPF. And encourage enterprise to make UWP control. I don't thinks it will work. And to me they should focus on getting Xamarin closer to UWP instead.

tzachshabtay commented 6 years ago

I think porting WPF and WinForms to .Net Core is part of an effort to discontinue .Net Framework (because why should they maintain both?). Once .Net Core supports WPF and WinForms are there any reasons to use .Net Framework anymore? The fact that they're reducing .Net Framework from 2 releases a year to 1 release a year is another evidence of this trend. Hopefully this would free up the devs and then they could achieve more with their time, maybe even that holy grail which is a true xplat frontend.

birbilis commented 6 years ago

Interop layers are never bad, they allow one to gradually migrate their application, or target multiple OS versions etc.

dotMorten commented 6 years ago

I think porting WPF and WinForms to .Net Core is part of an effort to discontinue .Net Framework (because why should they maintain both?). Once .Net Core supports WPF and WinForms are there any reasons to use .Net Framework anymore?

Let's ignore the fact that Microsoft can't just pull the plug on .NET Framework as it would screw all the customers who rely on it and go against Microsoft's support policy, and just pretend (for sake of argument) that .NET Framework is getting replaced by .NET Core (It's not - again just a though experiment), now answer this: Why would this be such a bad thing to get all the new .NET Core features in WPF and WinForms with full side-by-side install? I fail to read this in any other way that this is breathing MORE live into WPF, not killing it.

tzachshabtay commented 6 years ago

Why would this be such a bad thing to get all the new .NET Core features in WPF and WinForms with full side-by-side install? I fail to read this in any other way that this is breathing MORE live into WPF, not killing it.

I didn't say it was a bad thing, quite the opposite, I support this decision BECAUSE I think that's the reason they're doing it, which will reduce fragmentation in the ecosystem and free up their devs. And yeah, definitely DNF won't be completely discontinued, but switched to maintenance mode (a similar fate to winforms).

insinfo commented 6 years ago

@Mike-EEE it seems that microsoft does not want to hear the developers

So a quick tally here: Create a Ubiquitous .NET Client Application Development Model - 9,374 Votes Open source Silverlight 5,945 Votes Bring Windows 10 Universal Apps to Android and iOS - 3,478 Votes Silverlight 6 15,571 Votes

@carldebilly the UNO (http://platform.uno/) seems interesting, but it has a lot of overhead, this is far from being a platform to develop high performance real world applications. Noeses engine has a lot more potential because it runs on top of OpenGL/WebGL. with low overhead, close to zero. https://www.noesisengine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=341

insinfo commented 6 years ago

@Mike-EEE although this is not part of the XAML Standard subject. No doubt ML.NET was the best news of Build 2018 so far, I have nothing against anyone who loves Python, but I particularly hate it, but infesliment Python dominates the Machine Learning market. The closest I saw of a decent machine learning framework for C# easy to use was (Brightwire) https://github.com/jdermody/brightwire

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2018/05/07/introducing-ml-net-cross-platform-proven-and-open-source-machine-learning-framework/

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

this is not part of the XAML Standard subject

There is no Xaml Standard subject, as there is no longer a Xaml Standard, @insinfo. 😉 So I guess the question is: which "announcement" from this year's build is the new Xaml Standard? Anyone from Xamarin/UWP is on notice as far as I am concerned. Of course, this has been the case for UWP now for many years. We can add the Xaml Standard as yet another example of a project that the UWP group has now touched and as a result has become a useless, relegated idea.

UWP is meant to replace inadequate Win32 API stack

If inadequate is your subject, then UWP is your solution, @WinInsider. 😉 You do have a good point, though. From your provided perspective UWP makes a good amount of sense, and I actually agree with it. From .NET's perspective, however, it's completely opposite and therein lies one of many, many problems.

pjmlp commented 6 years ago

@Mike-EEE

WinRT design (and by definition UA and UWP) is actually older than .NET.

The genesis of .NET goes back to the Ext-VOS, aka COM+ Runtime, they just switched direction due to Java and eventually came up with the CLR.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dsyme/2012/07/05/more-c-net-generics-research-project-history-the-msr-white-paper-from-mid-1999/

So how did the politics play? No idea, but at least we also got MDIL and .NET Native out of that.

Now regarding the real discussion going on here, I also would like a proper message regarding XAML Standard and find the CSS improvements on Xamarin a waste of resources.

birbilis commented 6 years ago

@jackbond probably those native layers for .netcore are for Windows 10 only, that's why .NET framework is definitely still needed to let one target previous Windows versions too easily (without resorting to plain Win32 or third-party layers)

dotMorten commented 6 years ago

59 minutes in: https://youtu.be/BKxkDWv-IL0?t=3542

Suriman commented 6 years ago

There is no more speculation, XAML Standard is alive and well. :-)

bartlannoeye commented 6 years ago

It's all about setting the right expectations.

TonyHenrique commented 6 years ago

I also would like to have that XAML Standard (subset) and FluentDesign to work on Web :)

Also give a look at http://platform.uno/

insinfo commented 6 years ago

@dotMorten @Suriman
by the quality of the PowerPoint slide of XAML and by the video presented I see that the XAML Standard is even dead, it seems that both Xamarin Forms, XAML and even Windows is not so important for Microsoft. Microsoft is focused on cloud services

insinfo commented 6 years ago

a year of XAML standard and nothing so far

insinfo commented 6 years ago

this video talks about "Windows UX Fluent and XAML" most unfortunate nothing about a tool that's been asked for quite a while, which is a modern Drag and Drop Visual Editor for Xamarin Forms

dotMorten commented 6 years ago

https://twitter.com/dotMorten/status/994310465311227904?s=19

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

It's all about setting the right expectations.

Indeed, and setting right expectations starts with proper, effective, and transparent communication with the customers that you have been assigned to serve, @bartlannoeye (not YOU personally, but you know what I mean, hopefully 😆). To @pjmlp's point, we still have yet to get any sort of official word from any of the members of this forum or authority on this open source forum, the official forum of this standard and where all its artifacts lie.

While @dotMorten's videos are valuable and I appreciate him taking the time to share them, the 2nd one speaks to x:Bind which is one of a great many features that have been captured on this repo that have been requested and have community discussion formed around such.

To me, it makes more sense to reply after the 1st post set by @GeraudFabien for this thread with a simple message that takes 15 seconds or so to compose that simply states "yes we are hard at work with further materials that we will share with you at //build".

But, for some reason, letting this forum post devolve for three months with dozens and dozens of messages without any meaningful conversation with any of its administrators is considered a more effective means of communication.

Pardon my confusion on why this is so and feel free to take a stab at providing more context around this approach. As far I am concerned, it wasn't too popular with Silverlight, or LightSwitch for that matter. Or really, a dozen other projects that MSFT has decided to sunset. A really nasty underside to MSFT culture, IMO.

Mike-E-angelo commented 6 years ago

Did anyone see that XamlDirect? Does anyone know if that is supposed to work in/with a visual designer? And if not, why not just new up a CLR object directly? That is, what is the benefit of XamlDirect vs. new?

dotMorten commented 6 years ago

Here's the proper recording of David's XAML Standard announcement at 14:45:

https://youtu.be/gNU8-IXjyaI?t=885

I wasn't quick enough to record the beginning so a little bit of the context was lost.

With respect to XamlDirect, the details are in her thread: https://twitter.com/Harini_Kannan/status/994259237529206784 None of it has shipped yet, so we might just have to wait for some SDKs and docs. You're most likely not going to need it, but Xamarin.Forms will get benefit from it.