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minetest / minetest_game

Minetest Game - A lightweight and well-maintained base for modding [https://github.com/minetest/minetest/]
http://minetest.net/
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Change name of the game? #2077

Closed paramat closed 4 years ago

paramat commented 6 years ago

Suggestion for 'Mesetint':

I suggest some instances of the MTG name can remain to reduce disruption, such as the repo name.

To avoid bikeshedding i suggest we do not consider any other name and just go with a name celeron55 is happy with (and has used before).

C1ffisme commented 6 years ago

To avoid bikeshedding i suggest we do not consider any other name

Well excuse me for giving my two cents, but I have one problem with this name. I'm glad we're removing "Mine" from the name, and I'm definitely glad we're removing "Test" from the name. But why mese-tint? Yes, I know it's an anagram, but "tint" doesn't really say anything about what this game is.

Actually, to anyone that doesn't know what mese is, the other part of that word doesn't really mean anything either.

On the other hand, I think this is better than leaving the current name, because it helps new users to more easily differentiate between what Minetest is and what ~Minetest Game~ Mesetint is, besides the other previously mentioned fixes.

sofar commented 6 years ago

I would hope that at a minimum, people using 0.5.0 can load their old worlds without having to modify world.mt. Changing the name would break this, and I don't see a compelling reason why. Perhaps it's time to just start a new game going forward, if you really want breaking changes?

ghost commented 6 years ago

Differentiating game from engine is more important. Isn't there a solution to alias minetest gameid to mesetint?

On Sun, Mar 11, 2018, 1:20 AM sofar notifications@github.com wrote:

I would hope that at a minimum, people using 0.5.0 can load their old worlds without having to modify world.mt. Changing the name would break this, and I don't see a compelling reason why. Perhaps it's time to just start a new game going forward, if you really want breaking changes?

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sofar commented 6 years ago

I already regret replying to this thread.

The engine shouldn't keep an alias list for games. I'm sure that someone will find a way to break it.

ghost commented 6 years ago

You're point about breaking old worlds was definitely worthy. I was only stating that there is likely a way to maintain compatibility while moving to a new name, and "alias" was the first thought that came to mind.

On Sun, Mar 11, 2018, 1:56 AM sofar notifications@github.com wrote:

I already regret replying to this thread.

The engine shouldn't keep an alias list for games. I'm sure that someone will find a way to break it.

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benrob0329 commented 6 years ago

Having a way to make a game equivalent to another (similar to a "provides" field in packages) would be nice and allow games to have upgrade paths for later forks or versions that might not have the same name.

XenonLab-Studio commented 6 years ago

@paramat Changing the name of Minetest I find it an excellent idea for the following reasons:

9 years after the birth of Minetest, there are still many users who have not understood the true nature of this project. Minetest is a Game Engine, while MTG is a sub-game with basic elements easily extensible by adding third-party game content (mods).

The name Minetest appears as an incomplete product, testing, a different name with the addition of the word "Engine" in my opinion is the ideal solution to give a stronger sense to the project and destroy any form of misunderstanding by the end user . In addition to being more beautiful? this of course is my personal opinion.

I sincerely do not like Mesetint, it does not say anything and the user @C1ffisme is absolutely right. This is also my personal opinion that surely will be shared by many users (I hope).

A perfect name for MTG could be something like OpenMiner, VoxelMiner, MineGame, and more. I realize that it is not easy to give a meaningful name to MTG also because over the years dozens of MC clones have been made that have taken the best names (WordCraft, WordMiner, MineWord, and more).

Do not misunderstand what I wrote, but Mesetint sincerely does not work, much better than Minetest Game.

Ezhh commented 6 years ago

I don't like the name "Minetest Game". I'd like to change it.

My issue has been, and remains, that every single name I've heard sounds just as bad to me, Mesetint included.

paramat commented 6 years ago

people using 0.5.0 can load their old worlds without having to modify world.mt

Good point. A name change may be too much bother to be worth it.

This is a somewhat crazy suggestion and i don't really expect it to go anywhere =) I was expecting it to cause an amusing fuss. Names are so subject to taste it would be almost impossible to choose one, which is why i think it's best to let celeron55 choose or use a previous name.

A perfect name for MTG could be something like OpenMiner, VoxelMiner, MineGame, and more. I realize that it is not easy to give a meaningful name to MTG also because over the years dozens of MC clones have been made that have taken the best names (WordCraft, WordMiner, MineWord, and more).

I consider those the very worst names, lacking character and imagination. What i like about 'tint' is that is doesn't mean much. Obvious and descriptive names that are a combination of 'mine' 'craft' 'build' 'world' 'blox' 'voxel' 'cube' 'miner' 'free' 'open' are the most boring names :] Abstract names are fine and often more interesting as they are open to interpretation. 'tint' could mean the game is tinted by mese.

JurajVajda commented 6 years ago

Breaking the backwards compatibility with older worlds ( < 0.5.0) would mean that all servers would have to do complete reset of their worlds and all the hard work the players did in this world if they want to support MT (0.5.0) and the future version. I hope this will not happen.

paramat commented 6 years ago

I would not support anything that breaks worlds.

paramat commented 6 years ago

A funny thing about names ... if i had never encountered MT before i would find the name very unimaginative, it's so bad it's almost self-deprecatingly good. But once you get used to it, it becomes a little likeable even though it's so bad, and most suggested alternatives even if imaginative and original will usually be hated by at least 1 dev and very many players. I wonder if devs could ever agree on a new name? :]

Mesetint is somewhat silly but better than Minetest Game, however the important part is the differentiation from the engine.

Fixer-007 commented 6 years ago

Celeron55 likes the name and recently seemed happy to call this game that (but we'll check).

That's only one person :)

benrob0329 commented 6 years ago

would mean that all servers would have to do complete reset of their worlds

This is false. You can simply change the game name in world.mt and move on.

XenonLab-Studio commented 6 years ago

@paramat Your explanation convinced me I swear! you're absolutely right, names that report to MC are trivial, it takes something that describes the creative aspect of the project. It's not easy, but I'm full of perseverance and passion for MT :)

TumeniNodes commented 6 years ago

Dang, we can't offer other names? Mesetint sounds really odd to me (sorry celeron55)

Regardless, no matter what a new name is, the game will always be easily found and identified automatically as a "MC clone" or "MC-like" game anyway so you could name it "Game" or "Dog" and it would not change that very fact. Meaning, the name is honestly not as overly important as many seem to think or believe. Just that it should sound good.

ghost commented 6 years ago

Mesetint is a minetest game. Yeah that felt sange saying. Probably better than: minetest game is a minetest game.

On Sun, Mar 11, 2018, 10:26 PM TumeniNodes notifications@github.com wrote:

Dang, we can't offer other names? Mesetint sounds really odd to me (sorry celeron55)

Regardless, no matter what a new name is, the game will always be easily found and identified automatically as a "MC clone" or "MC-like" game anyway so you could name it "Game" or "Dog" and it would not change that very fact. Meaning, the name is honestly not as overly important as many seem to think or believe. Just that it should sound good.

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Fixer-007 commented 6 years ago

And of course we are stuck with that annoying minetest engine name.

celeron55 commented 6 years ago

@sofar You know what? The engine already and still handles "mesetint" as an alias of "minetest(_game)" :D

https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/subgame.cpp#L207

paramat commented 6 years ago

LOL.

celeron55 commented 6 years ago

Of course, if changing the name to mesetint, those lines need to be changed as the alias then has to go the other way.

ghost commented 6 years ago

Actually "Mesetint" to me sounds even more stupid than 99 percent of all suggested names in the (in)famous "Should we rename Minetest?" forum thread 😄

Helps MTG to be seen as just another game instead of the primary MT game

That's the only good thing about it.

ghost commented 6 years ago

A thumbs down in the original post would have sufficed.

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018, 2:13 AM Dirk notifications@github.com wrote:

Actually "Mesetint" to me sounds even more stupid than 99 percent of all suggested names in the (in)famous "Should we rename Minetest?" forum thread 😄

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Ferk commented 6 years ago

I used to dislike the new name they gave to "XBMC" ("Kodi"), but I've grown used to it and it did end up being an improvement.

I don't think it matters too much whether the name has an obvious meaning or not, specially for a game used for entertainment and not a tool with a specific function.

All it takes for it to start making sense is have the community start actually using it. I think having no meaning is better than having a misleading meaning (I always found names like "Voxel-something" annoying when the engine doesn't render voxels but polygons.. it makes it harder to find engines that do use voxels).

Fixer-007 commented 6 years ago

Minetest still is very bad name, it says out right it is amateurish test project.

Ezhh commented 6 years ago

Just some thoughts:

Minetest engine is often just referred to as MT. Minetest game as MTG. These are easily distinguishable short forms.

Short form of Mesetint is... also MT?

If we change the name, make it something that won't also result in the game getting called what the engine/whole project gets called?

benrob0329 commented 6 years ago

Just do it, this is turning into bikeshedding.

paramat commented 6 years ago

Having the same abbreviation is a minor inconvenience, we would just not use that abbreviation. The new suggestion is a little silly but not as bad as the original, if people can get used to the original they can get used to the suggestion :)

We are used to 'Minetest' and come to almost like it through association with something we like, but to someone new 'mine' + 'test' is probably the lamest, least original and most unimaginative name possible, it's literally what you would use to quickly save an evening's messing around for the first time.

Ezhh commented 6 years ago

@paramat Sorry, but I disagree. It's a bit more than a minor inconvenience. This is a rather large negative for me.

benrob0329 commented 6 years ago

MST would be a much better abreviation than MT.

paramat commented 6 years ago

Ok i'll change the title, i guess it's best we at least consider having a name other than Mesetint. Then this issue becomes more than half-serious with more chance of something happening. At the least i do feel the name needs changing for 0.5.0. @celeron55 do you have any other possible names for this game, in case we like one?

scottwolff commented 6 years ago

Seriously, at this point, i'd suggest you get some creative folks in marketing or pr that could do you a freebie and suggest a name if you want to rebrand the whole thing.

GreenXenith commented 6 years ago

Long awaited change for many people. Can say though, I prefer "Minetest" over "Mesetint". I will take the unoriginality over that name any day. Sorry. Hey maybe we could call it Mese2077 (Mese seems like a common theme here.. and this is issue 2077..) Joking of course. Actual name suggestions (because I don't see anyone else throwing names out there):

Name suggestions

Block-related names just because: * Block64 (because the world is 64000^3.. yeah ok) * Sam's Cube * Yeah I can't think of any more original ones Mese-related Names: * MeseLand * MeseQuest (Although we lack the 'quest' part) * MeseWorld Random Names: * Ill get back to you on that one.

Some of them may be unoriginal or silly. That's not the point.

paramat commented 6 years ago

(Sorry, but in my opinion we are creative people, and some unrelated person working in marketing or pr is the worst possible person to ask. The name should come from those who know and work on the game and are deeply in touch with MT culture)

scottwolff commented 6 years ago

Isn't there anyone in this profession that has been involved with minetest and the community.

C1ffisme commented 6 years ago

It's hard to come up with a name that's fitting and doesn't contain mese, because mese is the only original idea in this game. MTG doesn't even have a time frame that could be useful in this situation... The highest possible technology I can think of, Mese Lamps, could either be based on purely magical glowing crystals or crystals that emit light because of piezoelectricity.

(Even TNT isn't really TNT, just gunpowder-based explosives.)

The problem is that Mese isn't really something people are going to see in a name and say "Yes, this is a game I would like to play" because it has no meaning outside of Minetest Game.

So the thing is, we almost have to plan out our story/lore or gameplay plans before we rename the game, or we don't have anything to name it after. Until then, the game is just going to be labeled as "Mese-Blank".

TL;DR: We need something to name the game after before we can give it a name, or it has to contain mese.

scottwolff commented 6 years ago

I agree, C1ffisme. Minemese is what i was thinking to contribute as a name. Mese in the name. Other names: Mesamese

XenonLab-Studio commented 6 years ago

I propose "MineTex" here is the explanation:

A personal opinion? certainly, but at least I try to pull out sensible names, and MineTex is better than 70% of the names suggested up to now (maybe I'm wrong).

"Minetex Engine", or "Minetech Engine", sounds good and has the right message to the community.

@paramat @celeron55 What do you think about it?

Ferk commented 6 years ago

@XenonCoder keep in mind that this is about renaming the game, not the engine. As I understand it, the engine would continue being called "Minetest", and the point is to emphasize the difference between game and engine. Both terms need to coexist and be different enough to avoid confusion. "Minetex" is too similar to Minetest, and has the same acronym "MT" which was already a reason against "Mesetint".

To throw some random ideas: MeseQuest, Nodelands, Tinkerworld, Meseria (Mese+Moria :P)

benrob0329 commented 6 years ago

and has the same acronym "MT" which was already a reason against "Mesetint".

Minetex == MTX, again if you dont just slap MT as the acronym it won't have MT as the acronym.

XenonLab-Studio commented 6 years ago

@Ferk You are right. Names like: Minegame, Cubegame, Meseworld, all generic names that at least partially describe the MC derivation.

If the Minetest engine will keep the same name, MTG can call itself "Mesetint" quietly, because it is nothing more than a demo game made with the main game engine (Minetest).

Note: Minetest has a flaw, it looks like an experimental project (test), I have always had this feeling over the years, and many users who enter the server where I am moderator ask me the same question.

Do you want to improve the project? the best choice is this:

A total reset! new name (Minetest, and Minetest Game) delete retrocompatibility for the new 0.5.0 (in part you are already doing it). To give new life to a project that for years has been struggling to grow, the best thing is to start again with new goals and new ideas, keeping the excellent base built.

between MineTex, and Mesetint, Minetex vote which at the moment is the only decent name that has been suggested.

@benrob0329 The acronym MTX is not bad, I had not thought about it ;)

Ferk commented 6 years ago

@XenonCoder I'm just mentioning that the task was about making MTG (the game) have a distinctive name. I'm not against the idea of renaming the engine as well, but let's at least get first a distinctive name for the game. It's already gonna be troublesome enough to agree on the game name alone, so let's try and at least get that one thing done without mixing it up with other possible changes contributing to the bikeshedding....

That said, renaming the game to "Minetex" and the engine to "Minetex Engine" wouldn't be distinctive enough to set them apart, it'll have the same problem of causing confusion, which is one of the motivations of this ticket, for what I can understand.

TumeniNodes commented 6 years ago

I suggest some people detox from the emojiis a bit. 4 different emojis per comment is not necessary, one will do. Mesetopia, Mesedonia, or Meselands will do and start working a story around mese, and gearing the game to use mese as an important role.

I have done work in the past on helping people with names, logos, introduction information for their companies, and I have also done work related to children's and fantasy books. If that suffices having a promotional, marketing, or PR type of individual to help with a name, etc., I will let you know where to send the check (goofy smile)

I am back from two bouts of power loss in a row so I have much to catch up on ha Plus, I cannot resist jumping in on discussions which bring a ton of ideas and yet no progress (wink)

paramat commented 6 years ago

C1ffisme i completely disagree as usual, and the name doesn't have to have any meaning outside Minetest, it could be completely abstract, including 'mese' is ok.

MTG looks like it will stay a simple, basic, universal, modding base, game example type game, so probably will not have much story added. We're encouraging people to make new games so effort is shifting elsewhere. It has to be maintained because so much depends on it, it has high quality code and is extremely useful as a good coding example for other games. However i increasingly want to shift some of my time to more interesting stuff like new games or engine features.

I particularly want to avoid anything with 'Mine' in it, as this is the most overused and unoriginal word used in voxel game names. It too obviously shows an attempt at gaining popularity by namedropping Minecraft.

It's not certain the engine will or will not be renamed, i hope it is.

Renaming is so difficult, so much i think of sounds wrong, i still prefer Mesetint to anything else so far, however another primary MTG dev doesn't like that so i won't pursue that.

@celeron55 do you have that list of possible engine names somewhere, would any of those be suitable for MTG?

C1ffisme commented 6 years ago

MTG looks like it will stay a simple, basic, universal, modding base, game example type game, so probably will not have much story added. We're encouraging people to make new games so effort is shifting elsewhere.

While I worry about the state of Minetest as a whole if we don't have a default game to impress newcomers with, keeping on topic, a good name in this case would be based around the word "Mod" or synonyms.

Personally I think "Mod-test" sounds a bit... accurate, but slightly disappointing. It's a name that says that this game is for testing mods, and isn't suitable by itself. Actually, now that I think about it, any name with "Mod" in it is going to suggest that the game by itself is unfinished and incomplete, considering that the game's modifiability is the only thing that can be advertised about the game.

I still don't think there's much that can, positively and appetizingly, be advertised about Minetest Game right at this very minute... Although I suppose this just means we can't market our game correctly. In which case, we're free to choose a name that works when talking to other people familiar with Minetest.

So go ahead and give it a name with "mese", I agree, because there's not much else to put in the name.

XenonLab-Studio commented 6 years ago

I cannot resist jumping in on discussions which bring a ton of ideas and yet no progress (wink)

@TumeniNodes We talk, we discuss and together we find the solutions. Minetest is an open source project, otherwise it would not make sense to keep it with a free license if users are not free to express their ideas. Do not you think so too? In the past I wrote a novel of mine, some stories and I collaborated with a famous cartoonist here in Italy, for many years studying advanced software and programming languages, but I do not feel better than others. The brilliant idea can come from anyone, having previous skills does not lead a person to be better than others.

Using the word "mese" can be a good idea, to give a distinctive mark to the project. It takes a good idea to update the mese mineral and give it a special feature. For me it's ok, as he rightly pointed out @paramat words like "Mine" lead to think of Minecraft. Something as simple as "Meseland, Meseworld", what is important is to change the name and remove "test", improving the game content and correcting all the historical problems of the project.

ghost commented 6 years ago

Personally I think "Mod-test" sounds a bit... accurate, but slightly disappointing. It's a name that says that this game is for testing mods, and isn't suitable by itself.

Calling it “Modding Base” would be pretty exact for the same reason. MTG on it’s own is pretty much useless and doesn’t even deserve the attribute “Game”, but since it provides the bloaty default mod most other mods depend on because default provides some useful APIs/tools/functions to build on it’s still alive.

If it weren’t the base for most mods it would be dead.

On-topic: Naming a game after one of it’s many features isn’t a good idea. It just feels needy.

benrob0329 commented 6 years ago

How about we just call it "Sandbox". Because thats all it really is, a small sandbox base game that is meant to be modded. (Yes, this is taken from Gmod but people might get the idea in that case that there is more than the base)

Fixer-007 commented 6 years ago

How about we just call it "Sandbox".

Actually rename engine to that. Will be in tops of google search.

C1ffisme commented 6 years ago

I actually like the idea of "Sandbox". If I had to make one change to the name though, I'd make it "Default Sandbox" since a lot of other ~subgames~ games are probably also going to be sandboxes.