Should we return to chemists and CMOs being the only ones with access to chemistry?

[Probe1]

2010-2014: Chemist was an important job and we had many notable chemists.

November 2014: Badclown removes chloral and gives everyone but paramedics chemistry access

December 2014: Pomf returns and we get chloral back

2016: Chemists are muscled out by half the station walking in to replace them. Quality players play doctor since it has chemist built into it but without the expectation of doing a thorough job.

Is it time we go back and return Chemist to a real part of Medbay?

[Ephx1]

I think if you want to talk about this you might want to consider the extended access that other departments got.

[Blithering]

Possibly trial run no extended access for a week?

[Probe1]

It's worth pointing it out yes. Engineers got atmos access. Scientists got robotics access. And vice versa.

However those didn't kill off roboticists or atmospheric techs.

[Ephx1]

I would argue that it sort of made roboticists pointless but atmospheric technicians are usually only played by someone who knows pipes while normal engis know the basics.

[ghost]

I've noticed on some servers that you can be given extended access at roundstart if there's a lack of people. Like a mechanic would get general engineering access to set up engines and such.

Perhaps, should there be no chemist at roundstart, any roundstart MDs are given chemistry access? This would mean that any non-roundstart MDs wouldn't get chemistry access, and should there be a chemist the MDs won't get their additional access.

Problem with this would be you'd be at the whim of a shit chemist if he just joins to go AFK in chemistry to fuck over MDs

[Kammerjunk]

There are too few chemists who know how to do anything and those who do and still somehow have an interest in medbay mostly play MD or scientist because it's the same except you can do more/have less responsibility (respectively). In lowpop, doctors will have to break in and in highpop, doctors will either have to break in or get mad at the chemist for having fucked off. As I understand it, this is also exactly what caused the access in general. For engineering, this'll mean station engineers will have to work around their limited access to cool plasma (no access to the socket wrenches) and for science, this means lone robos can't do RnD (or was the deconstructive analyser's access requirement removed recently?) and lone scientists have to do RnD the long way (and can't fix up borgs). If you want to remove extended access, what @Skullyton suggests is the best way around it.

[kilozombie]

Possibly because atmos and robotics are their own jobs and can't be done very quickly unless you're just hopping in to grab some things. When MDs were given Chemistry access, all previous Chemists just became MDs because it had more benefits overall, maybe? I wasn't around for the change but had played on servers where the jobs were mutually exclusive.

@Skullyton I was going to suggest something like this, it makes enough sense but yeah it can get bad with an inactive chemist. In the end though, you really only need to break one window, and I doubt anyone's going to persecute you if you're an MD and there's no chemist.

[Probe1]

@Skullyton we have that partially implemented in the code. We at least have restricted and extended access defines.

[Gringonius]

If anything I think that chemist should be turned into an alternative MD job title, occupying the same job slot, medbay gets overpopulated enough during high pop.

Since things here are always balanced around scenarios where players are absolutely incompetent, blocking MDs from chemistry will just bring back those rounds with 2-3 doctors having to break into chem or screaming at the chemists to do anything but mutagen and space drugs smoke.

[Kuranon]

I mean, the Head of Personnel job exists, you don't have to break into places you don't have access to

[Fruktlimpa]

We very rarely have chemists and when we do they are 9 out of 10 times horrendous for some odd reason. The extended access might have been the fault of that, but I foresee a lot of breaking into chemistry and a lot of angry MDs who get busted for trespassing.

[ghost]

Kuranon, weapon permits exist that can be granted via a HoP, doesn't stop scientists from blowing open lockboxes

[Kuranon]

The HoP shouldn't be giving out weapon permits to just anyone. Extra access to jobs within your department is reasonable to ask for and you will most likely get it, if you just asked

[PJB3005]

I think it's less that the HoP wouldn't give them out and more that it's easier to just bust the lockbox open the hard way.

[Gringonius]

It's worth pointing it out yes. Engineers got atmos access. Scientists got robotics access. And vice versa. However those didn't kill off roboticists or atmospheric techs.

Scientists and roboticist are doing the same job, often scientists take care of robotics when roboticists are incompetent or non-existent. This is the exact same thing that is happening with chemistry, with the only difference of people from outside of medbay breaking in to make their own drugs.

At least the way you put all this doesn't seem to show any sort of issue regarding medbay itself but rather chemistry being easily broken into by people from outside of its department.

[Kammerjunk]

And similarly, breaking into chemistry is easier and much less time-consuming than getting the HoP's attention

[9600bauds]

Would Chemists not have surgery access or something to balance out their access?

[ghost]

Overall I believe Chemistry access should be given only to Chemists save only if there is no Chemist. And to the people who say no because there might be a shit chemist well then tough luck, you could say that about every job on the station and make the argument that everyone should have access to everything because they might be shit. And on the same front I believe Chemists shouldn't have Surgery access unless there are no Doctors.

[Kammerjunk]

I believe they already don't, but I'm not sure since I only very rarely see any worth their salt.

[9600bauds]

Yes they do, Chemist and MD are exactly the same job bar the PDA cartridge

[kilozombie]

I mean, at some point, that's like saying "just remove warden and let security officers have armory access" or "just remove quartermaster and let cargo techs do the job" There are a lot of advantages to having different jobs with different access and purposes in a single department.

[Fruktlimpa]

The thing is, if the chemist is bad then the MDs get completely crippled. They literally cannot do their job if there are no chems or mix. Science wont fall apart because there is no robo. Engi wont fall apart because there is no atmos tech.

[despotate]

Are the MDs really "completely crippled"? Can't they order medical crates?

[Kuranon]

Medical crates, sleepers, the medkits in the backroom

[PJB3005]

@despotate has a point. Medbay can run fine without chemistry.

[ghost]

@Fruktlimpa Maybe medbay should start with more pills or a small cryo mix at round start to ease this if there is a bad player, or if there is no Chemist the HoP can give one access.

[Fruktlimpa]

Crates, medkits, and sleepers cannot AT ALL replace the need for chems. It will be extremely inefficient, time-consuming, and frustrating.

@PJB3005 No, they absolutely cannot. I can't believe you even said this since it is so wrong.

[kilozombie]

I was replying to Aceedex. I think it'd make sense if MDs had access to Chemistry if there were no chemists, but removing the chemist job entirely seems pretty bad.

[Gringonius]

Are the MDs really "completely crippled"? Can't they order medical crates?

Unless you consider having to treat every eye and brain damage with slow surgery and also 30 cryox cryo tubes being the fastest way to stabilize and heal people in critical conditions not crippling, then they're not.

[Kammerjunk]

Medbay cannot run fine without chemistry, Christ what Sleepers only work on people above crit. There are no first aid kits - or anything else from cargo - that give bicar. Even if it did, you'd have a few pills of the four basic damage types done (with regular dex instead of dex+) You can't even clone people without chemistry because even with the laughable 30u cryox beakers, that needs alkysine (and ryetalyn, but you can substitute for SEs, which also give tiny toxins, in a pinch)

[ghost]

From the comments I have seen here the basic argument against chemistry having its own access is:

"Its an important job shitters my screw it up so give the job to everyone just in case."

Does this sound right? Maybe chemistry needs some changes? I believe constantly giving extended access for the sole reason of "shitty" players screwing up isn't very good solution.

[Gringonius]

I believe constantly giving extended access for the sole reason of "shitty" players screwing up isn't very good solution.

How so? When I played medbay often extended access saved medbay most of the time. Again, half of the issue I see Probe bringing up doesn't seem to be about medbay access at all but instead about chemistry being easy to break in.

Chemists are muscled out by half the station walking in to replace them.

[ghost]

@Gringonius Well the best solution I have seen is simply making the chem dispenser chemist only so even if people break in they don't have access unless they get it from the HoP or some other means the coders might add in. People will stop breaking in when they all know it wont matter, though it is a shitty situation thats why Id like for there to be a fail safe in case there is no chemist not if there is a shitty one

[Gringonius]

I honestly fail to see how the current system is bad in any shape or form at this point. Again I think that chemists should just be turned into an alternative MD title/starting equipment set.

And at this point I don't see why, geneticists, atmos techs and roboticists shouldn't get the same treatment either.

[kilozombie]

@Gringonius Because it's an awful idea. You need to split up responsibility somewhere, at some point, at least for most jobs. You're essentially saying every department should be only one job with a million responsibilities instead of a few different ones with different responsibilities.

[PJB3005]

Ok I take that back but other than alkysine and bicard it's fucking fine.

If the round is actually so damn busy that having to actually spend a bit of time with your patients is unacceptable then just go to the fucking HoP already jesus.

[ghost]

@Gringonius Because for me personally its fun having many specialized jobs. I think everyone should focus on what their job is. I think more than anything Doctor's need a large change as they have come to heavily rely and Chemistry and Genetics. Most doctors I see now days will just shove Dermaline/Bicardine/Anti-tox down peoples throws and send them on there way or even worse will wait for critical patients to die and just clone/cryo them. I think the issue more lies with the doctors not being able have a lesser substitute for having a bad chemist or no chemist.

[Kammerjunk]

Alkysine and bicar, yeah. And clonex, ryetalyn, dex+, hyro/arith, imidazoline (as any small eye damage will have to be treated with surgery) In the round that finally prompted this issue, the chemist, the doctors, and the medborg were all extreme autists about wanting to use the chem dispenser, to the point where I left for beakers and crates and came back a minute or two later and the chemist had straight-up quit and become an engineer. You're not going to cure autism by forcing the autists to play in different rooms. @Secish The vast majority of medbay is chemistry and you can't fix people who only need a damage healed any faster than the reagents will metabolise. This is hardly a new thing.

[Gringonius]

You need to split up responsibility somewhere, at some point, at least for most jobs. You're essentially saying every department should be only one job with a million responsibilities

This happens organically at round start in departments like medbay itself and science already or in engineering with just the engine at round start. The issue here is that the jobs I've mentioned don't even need huge amount of time spent on it, work best coupled with the resources brought or made by the "main" jobs of their respective department and aren't even that crucial with the exception of chemist or atmos tech when there are lots of breaches. Engineers who fix breaches are often checking if atmos pipes are working on their own instead of assuming that an atmos tech will show up to do just the pipes, scientists doing RnD often want mech syringe guns at the start and often gift themselves with mechs they easily build in robotics which is 3 seconds away from them, geneticists are never really missed and I don't think anyone misses the time doctors couldn't access cloning.

I think more than anything Doctor's need a large change as they have come to heavily rely and Chemistry and Genetics.

How is this wrong exactly? Medicine and cloning are a huge deal with treating people and bodies.

Most doctors I see now days will just shove Dermaline/Bicardine/Anti-tox down peoples throws and send them on there way or even worse will wait for critical patients to die and just clone/cryo them. I think the issue more lies with the doctors not being able have a lesser substitute for having a bad chemist or no chemist.

A chemist making medicine or a doctor wouldn't change a thing about this behavior. You want a complete change on the chemistry and healing system instead of access changes, advanced scan + chemicals and sending people out is just how our system works and doctors waiting for people on crit to die or killing them outright for cloning is entirely the player's own fault and not something that locking doctors from chemistry and cloning would fix at all.

[ghost]

@Kammerjunk What does "autist" mean in this example? The chemist was upset that everyone came in and tried to do his job for him before he could do it himself and was fed up. And I know I said Doctors lack a lesser substitute, thus the need to break into Chemistry should the Chemist be slow or bad.

@Gringonius I personally think Doctors should have other ways to treat people than pills and a tube but thats just me personally. The pills and tube should be a harder to get but more effective treatment, again my opinion.

[Anton-Kr]

If anything this makes the wildride even worse. Having no chems as the only MD on is absolutely horrible.

[PJB3005]

@kammerjunk most of the things you listed aren't strictly needed and you're fine without them. Sure they're extremely useful but most are simply convenience and speed over the things medbay can get without chemistry.

[Kammerjunk]

@Secish "Autist" in this means that people entered chemistry because it was empty at roundstart and someone called out for people to get chemistry done over medical channel. @PJB3005 You can't treat radiation without hyro or arith or waiting for all of it to become toxins. Regular dexalin only heals 1 per tick, which is not viable for when you actually need to heal suffocation damage. One first-aid kit contains either 3 kelotane pills, 3 anti-tox pills, or 4 dexalin pills, which you'll have to either turn into smaller pills or crush into beakers if you want to ration them beyond only lasting 3 people. It's not viable except in way lowpop

[kilozombie]

@Gringonius

This happens organically at round start in departments like medbay itself and science already or in engineering with just the engine at round start.

Sometimes. I don't know if it's the best way to balance the game, though. People enjoy being able to just do their own thing without having the expectation that (x) things need to be done. A roundstart engineer might hate doing atmos but feel pressured to do it if atmos techs didn't exist.

[KingofHONK]

I'll give my 2 cents because I'm a chem regular.

Perceived problem: nobody plays chemist because you can be Med doc. And do the same job.

Actual problem: chemists job is easily completed in the first 10-15 minutes. Unless you're yred and then it's 5 minutes. There is no endgame. After that you are an orange doctor. The solution isn't to restrict content or cut content It's to create content.

[SangriaMonkey]

Before every basic boy had access to most of his department you'd see a whole lot more slamfucked windows and hacked doors if there weren't heads of staff willing to fill in. I don't think that trying to roll back this kind of thing is going to be very constructive.

The better solution would be to add a little more depth to chemistry, without completely fucking things over or making vital drugs even more of a chore to come by (a la goofchem).

[kilozombie]

Maybe someday there will be an endgame. I have an insider source that there might be something like that coming Soon (tm)

[Gringonius]

@kilozombie

Sometimes. I don't know if it's the best way to balance the game, though. People enjoy being able to just do their own thing without having the expectation that (x) things need to be done. A roundstart engineer might hate doing atmos but feel pressured to do it if atmos techs didn't exist.

I also hated having people threaten my atmos tech for not doing the engine because he didn't feel like it was his responsibility to the point a new admin had angrily PMd me but that's life. As long as there's someone working on the important stuff I often rest easy and do my own thing.

[Fruktlimpa]

Do you not fathom how annoying it would be to work as an MD with no chems? Spend more time with your patients, you can do that fine with brute packs, blood bags, surgery, and other shit, we don't need more annoying things? NOBODY is going to be happy about having to do surgery to fix eye damage or brain damage or always having a clean SE injector lying around(Which would be exactly the same as Rye)

I repeat, medbay cannot function to any decent degree without chems. Nobody in game is going to be happy about a medbay that works without chems. Everyone will be frustrated about it, why do you believe this would be positive for the playing experience?

[kilozombie]

@Gringonius That's fair. I don't think it's the worst thing like I initially said, but I still think it's against some of what makes spess fun to me, and seems like a slippery slope to having fewer and fewer jobs with more and more access, when in reality SS13 is a machine with many interlocking cogs (jobs).