Changelings absence of tells

[Probe1]

Another guy ate a ban because of how hard it is to prove someone is a changeling without letting him fucking kill you first.

Can we add a stinking blood test please? I hate this.

I hate it.

The other day @Konater walked around halluc stinging everyone in sight and no one could do a damn thing despite the obviousness of what was happening because the only way to know was OOC/metaknowledge. Today someone who is an otherwise decent guy snapped and force borged a guy to find out if he was a ling.

I do not like this mode. It results in salt and overhead.

[Shadowmech88]

I have heard that a transformed changeling can be ousted by forcing them to sign their name via the [sign] tag. Apparently, it causes them to sign their original name rather than the name of their current identity.

It's a very hacky ling test though, and is only possible due to oversight.

[Probe1]

@Shadowmech88 Nah it's not true. I heard a Captain say it one round and tested it on the spot. Didn't work.

[Exxion]

It's been a long-ass time since I played there, but if memory serves, there's something about cloning a ling on TG

[Killette2]

Lings can't smoke cigarettes/cigars else they explode, it's a proven ling test.

[Manaony]

And then we get sec blood testing everything as soon as someone scream "X absorbing me in dorm" just to be sure. So I'll say no.

[Shadowmech88]

And then we get sec blood testing everything as soon as someone scream "X absorbing me in dorm" just to be sure.

Why can't that be handled in the same way that "Sec dragging everyone to the chapel as soon as someone screams 'X biting me in dorm' just to be sure." would be?

[Manaony]

Remember how that was handled? Chapel effect on vamp got nerfed/removed.

[Konater]

Honk

[Shadowmech88]

How long ago was that? Because I've seen a vampire burst into flames from chapel exposure in the last month or two.

[Killette2]

What if when changelings absorbed someone it left behind a new sludge, maybe a dark green one or something. This can leave footprints and remain on your shoes. Then again, that will probably result in something stupid like someone getting executed for walking across puke.

Also what is wrong with borging someone to ask if they are a ling if you promise to put them back in their body and defib afterwards? Borg them, ask if they're a ling, ahelp saying you're doing this (and have the authorization) so the admins can also see the situation, ask the borg under law 2 if it was a changeling and it cannot lie under asimov, else a bannu happens.

[Killette2]

You can also bargain with a confirmed changeling to get it to try to cooperate with you in exchange for it's freedom, which is risky, but lings cannot sting lings. Just ask the ling to reveal whom it absorbed, recover the bodies, and make sure it doesn't kill anyone else while monitoring it very carefully.

[Manaony]

Actually I was wrong, it wasn't removed or nerfed at all I might have mistaken the PR or it was re-added later on. I'm still against it though it on the same level as syndie-cake shittery.

[9600bauds]

Actually when Konater was doing the thing everyone was 100% sure who it was and I was 100% sure nobody would bwoink me for cremating the clown, but I didn't due to a mix of laughing my ass off at the situation and wishing they would do anything remotely antagonistic due to how fucking dull Changeling is, especially when it goes on for one hour longer than it should.

[Probe1]

kinda leads to my point I think. changelings don't feel the pressure to antagonize and do things.

[Blithering]

Personally I think the whole mode needs a rework, even with the new adjusted horror form and death sting costs, you almost never see lings going loud before they've sucked off monkeymen for an hour. If their victims became a part of them, similar to https://github.com/d3athrow/vgstation13/pull/9066 , and gave similar abilities, lings would become noticeably nonhuman faster, and also become stronger faster. Ling testing would be a case of looking for the guy who's arm is a massive scything tentacle or somesuch.

[Shadowmech88]

That would make changelings the only antag that would be unable to increase their power level without breaking their cover. Not necessarily saying that's bad, just pointing it out.

[Iamgoofball]

"guys lets add antag tests for every antag"

[Iamgoofball]

the only tell should be getting caught or being suspicious, otherwise it's going to be "alright crew line up for free blood tests, resist and we laser/space your corpse after a blood test"

[Exxion]

That's why a blood test isn't a good idea for this server There needs to be a tell, but one that isn't feasible to perform en masse

[Shadowmech88]

When vampires are confirmed Security doesn't just tell everyone to gather in the chapel so they can see who bursts into flames, despite the fact that it's a guaranteed test for being a vampire.

[ihadtoregisterforthis]

That's not unheard of either.

[Manaony]

Mandatory chapel party sponsored by security is a documented side-effect of stealth vampire outbreak.

[Shadowmech88]

Is it not against the rules? I know someone's gotten banned in the past for dragging people to the chapel to test them for vampirism.

[9600bauds]

Only because it was medRP

[Probe1]

We can make the blood test easier than the chapel test blood must be in a glass container (beakers et al). blood must be subject to heat for 120 seconds. blood of a changeling does something dramatic and dangerous.

There, now you basically have to use the bunsen burner or else you're gonna get real tired of holding a lit welder/lighter for 2 minutes not moving.

[Probe1]

goon has it right.

[Iamgoofball]

"mandatory security run party in chemistry lab for ling checking"

[Probe1]

who doesn't like a sec party? :postal_horn: :tada: :balloon:

[9600bauds]

You could argue that the "mandatory X check" issue would already apply to random searches, which aren't really a big issue

Now: Why are random searches not a big issue?

[Probe1]

Because if they're done on code green its a bannu and if people are flipping to blue/red without any justification admins will fuck with them.

[9600bauds]

So do that for blood tests

[Probe1]

Sure. It'd be the same as (On code green) dragging people to the chapel to check and see if they might be a vampire, or mass implanting the crew at roundstart because they might be revs, and so on.

[Probe1]

@AutismSpider Lately heads have been way more active about popping blue/red when I'm observing. Historically, it has been a big issue with heads either being incompetent or not recognizing there is a serious issue that needs a code elevation.

Bottom line is I feel it's an IC issue that we can work on as players, not as coders or admins.

[kol1th]

I don't agree with this at all. I've been """randomly tested""" as a vampire without doing any antag stuff yet, and with no announcements of vampires over comms. It was bullshit and I didn't get to do anything with my antag round because of it. It'll just add more ways to validhunt and I don't think it should exist.

Perhaps add residue of some sort (a stinger?) in the husk that can be found via autopsy scanner, that will have traces of DNA with it. That would be a more one by one case, rather than CHECK EVERYONE'S BLOOD WE GOT LINGS, like happens in cult and vampire.

[Brolaire]

ever since probe started this thread ive been trying to think of something that makes lings more obvious without inciting validhunts at roundstart where security feeds people holy water while cooking their blood and implanting them in the chapel.

The best I could come up with in terms of tells was "Give the lings cool mutations that make it obvious they're lings". Like, /tg/ for example has armblades. Armblades are real fucking neato, and make it hella obvious you're a ling. We don't have to rip off /tg/ but similar things, maybe some sort of hivehand that leave unique "bullet casings" or stains on your clothes or change the way your character looks unclothed could be interesting. Besides that, introducing tells is a bad idea with the current mindset of the playerbase.

[Probe1]

Back to back changeling rounds where changelings were allowed to just do whatever without fear of persecution because of the absence of blood tests has hardened my resolve on this.

[Killette2]

Heheh, Probe said he's hard.

[9600bauds]

Can you do anything with that stinger?

[Probe1]

yea now lets all just get killed and hope the changeling doesn't drag our body to maint for the succ

[ComicIronic]

Antag testing is terrible, but lings aren't obligated to go loud for the most part.

How about the blood test is possible after spending a certain number of ling coins? It would incentivise a low cost stealth hard mode and going full throttle if you know you can be detected.

[Killette2]

Ling coins? That is lame, why can't we do detective work? What happened to retrieve a found body then question it?

See a body, autopsy it and you get a stinger, match the DNA of a stinger to the DNA of a changeling (transforming can throw this off, giving a ling a reason to try to impersonate their victims).

Blood test are BAD if it involves a blood sample. The only way you can test if someone is a vampire, is if you actually have that person with you, which is reasonable.

[ComicIronic]

A blood test without the ling present isn't going to be very useful since they can always transform. It's only going to be effective if you can follow the blood directly, which would mean having the ling there with you to test.

[Probe1]

Give me whatever you got.

Changelings have:

• Instant one hit stealth kills
• Instant one hit silence
• Instant one hit paralysis
• Undetectable unless they use their powers in front of someone and all their advantages in stealth fail them.

It's all the bad ideas we've ever had rolled into one. Almost all changeling rounds end up as extended. There is no pressure on the antags. They are free to quietly hoard monkeymen (which is a problem in itself).

At this point "IT WORKS" but anything would be an improvement over half of all changeling rounds ending up getting bussed because everyone is bored.

[Shadowmech88]

Pretty much the only way to oust a ling that isn't enough of an idiot to use his powers in front of someone is to find a husk with their prints on it. Assuming they didn't wear gloves when handling it.

Contrast this with traitors and cultists who must carry their gear on their person if they want to be most effective, and vampires which can be ousted simply by dragging them into the chapel or splashing them with holy water.

Changelings are the only antags that could reach maximum power and still there would be no way to even provide evidence to the fact that they're a changeling if no one saw them use an ability.

[Killette2]

@Shadowmech88

There's no way to test who the real mindswapping wizard is, unless there's something only the real person would know (like their account info but who would think to think of that in a wiz round)

[Blithering]

How about having the ling's victims leave a stinger in the body which can be removed via the usual item retrieval surgery, and can then be scanned for DNA? Not possible to do on the fly, so ling has a chance to dump his identity for a new one and escape, and also gives a downside to just staying as one ID, sucking off monkeymen for two hours then fucking off.

[Probe1]

FInding a husked corpse is a sign the ling fucked up.

[Killette2]

Not to mention, you can still just arrest someone if they are doing bad shit during a ling round. You have chemical weaponry, handcuffs, and an energy gun when changelings are out murdering people, and expect to be let off easy during such a crisis?

[9600bauds]

Just had a round where the lings did nothing for nearly one hour and half, except one of them just made a phazon and murderboned instead. Why would you risk absorbing anyone when you can just muderbone via conventional methods and have better results?

I think that rather than lack of a ling test, the problem is that ling powers suck (and they get kind of shafted by silicons). Give them cool powers to encourage them to actually antagonize. Maybe they won't play R&D Solitaire for one hour and half instead.

[Kurfursten]

@Killette2 (Testing mindswapped wiz) You can ask them what their blood type is

An upgraded body scanner will tell you blood type (also you can just fill an empty bloodbag with their blood and see what kind fills it)

@9600bauds That's the first time I've ever heard someone say a rechargeable parapen sucks.