Concept: new air unit tree, based on the old javelin mech pad.

[Spidroxide]

Describe the content or mechanics you are proposing.

Back in v5 I always enjoyed using the javelin mech, even if it was outclassed by trident and glaive. I am well aware that the old implementation of the javelin would not be useful in the current game, but I still feel like there is potential for a javelin unit tree given that it is such a fast and unique unit. I'm aware that coding another unit tree would be a lot of work and if you aren't looking for more unit trees right now then id probably just skip this feature request and move on. However if you are looking for ideas for units then here are a few of mine.

Javelin (t1 air). Requires 30 silicon, 15 metaglass, and 5 phase fabric. This unit is mainly meant for supply and fire control, and is equipped with a small wave turret, a size 40 cargo hold, and a very high top speed with a slow acceleration. This unit, when left idle, will automatically detect fires and fly to the location of them, and when it reaches top speed it gains a 99% resistance to all damage dealt by non electric weapons (allowing it to fly over enemy bases just like the javelin mech could).

Proboscis (t2 air). This unit is equipped with a fast mining speed, a modified parallax turret, and a size 30 cargo hold that can store different types of material. When left idle, it will pathfind to enemy blocks that are not protected by enemy turrets, or units that cannot shoot it down, and attack them using the parallax turret. It deals small amounts of damage, but the proboscis leaches the materials needed to build that unit or block equal to (damage)/(1.5 x block/unit max health), storing them in the cargo hold, and if the damage/s dealt by proboscises is over 5% of the unit/blocks max health, then blocks will be disabled and units will be stopped, as if by logic. The damage dealt by proboscis cannot be healed (to prevent material duplication).

Aegis (t3 air). This unit is equipped with two small segment turrets and building capability. It will automatically seek out groups of units such as squads, especially those controlled by players or those attacking some unit or structure, and will use the segment turrets to defend against incoming bullets or missiles. Additionally, whenever damage is taken by a unit, that damage will be shared equally among all nearby aegis.

Tachyon (t4 air). This unit is equipped with a small health pool but a very high speed, along with a weak (120% speed) but mobile overdrive projector that also works on units. Like aegis, it will join groups of units to increase their speed and damage output. It can also pick up blocks and units.

Chronos (t5 air). This unit has no offensive weapons, is slow, and has a very low HP pool, but carries a weak (170% speed) but mobile overdrive dome that not only works on units but also disables any enemy overdrive projectors or overdrive domes within range. To power the overdrive dome, the unit draws large amounts of power from any nearby power grid, allied or enemy alike. This can be weaponised into crashing the opponents power grid by drawing too much and disabling the overdrives. It has no other special effects.

Describe how you think this content will improve the game. If you're proposing new content, mention how it may add more gameplay options or how it will fill a new niche.

Systematically:

Javelin. I feel like this unit would help in logic for long distance item transportation. Typically any flares, the current fastest unit in the game, would be annihilated when trying to cross any enemy base due to their low HP pool. If javelin was implemented in the way suggested here however, it would become possible for units to traverse enemy bases and feed outposts of ripples, or suchlike. These units would be restricted to late game due to their reliance on phase fabric, just like the old javelin mech, but they would make a big contribution to late-game unit transportation while still not being too overpowered. Additionally I feel like we need some sort of fire-response unit in the game and javelin fits that description perfectly: being able to quickly respond to any fire no matter where or when it is would be a big help since waves and tsunamis take entirely too long to build.

Proboscis. I feel like this unit would be a good addition to the game just for supplying you with additional resources and automatic deconstruction once you capture parts of an enemy base. Right now when you destroy things in attack maps the detritus is usually just left until you kill the core at the heart of the base, and in multiplayer it is often not cleaned up at all. Proboscis would fit this niche perfectly: refunding you for your efforts in destruction while also passively cleaning up everything nearby. While it deals low damage it would also be a good counter for very difficult attack maps in multiplayer, or for chipping away at t5 units, since the damage it deals cannot be healed. And lastly the suspension of blocks that are being damaged is very strong, but the low damage means that you really have to make a lot of proboscises to actually get this effect to happen, and so it becomes more of a "unit race" similar to how v5 pvp worked.

Aegis. I feel like this unit would be good making squad strategies more viable. Often units in squads will get picked off one-by-one by hails and ripples, fuses, or foreshadows, and the issue with squads is that the more that this happens, the less damage they deal. Aegis would act sort of like a meatshield, protecting the damaging units from high damage single shots and shooting down a lot of the AOE bullets, while also acting as a counter to some of the most powerful turrets in the game. I think this unit overall would just be a good way of flattening out the playing field when it comes to strategies, and would also unlock a lot of potential for new ones.

Tachyon. The goal of this unit is to protect it at all costs. It greatly increases the damage and speed of squads of units and the more there are the higher the bonus since the ratio of damaging units to tachyon is greater, but the flipside is that it is very weak and vulnerable. It is still a support unit, but it is the flipside of aegis: powerful offensively but weak defensively, and you have to play around that weakness to get the most out of the unit.

Chronos. This unit is, again, weak for its tier, but extremely damaging if you can get it to work. Like oct has a shield, it can be stationed as a mobile overdrive, but its primary use is to fly alongside other t5 units and make them faster and deal more damage. Another of its features it that it would wreak serious havoc on defences if its allowed to get close: by disabling overdrives and leaching huge amounts of power off of the enemy grid it effectively renders the base helpless to other allied t5s. The difficulty comes however in getting close enough with the low hp pool to actually trigger these effects, and so it becomes a game of strategy.

Overall i still think the javelin tree has a lot of potential as a support class, especially given that wave, tsunami, parallax, and segment all lack units that use their respective abilities. The overdrive units (t4 and t5) might not be feasible or balanced in the current game, but i definitely think that the units 1-3 have good uses since they are almost the inversions of the flare, the mono/poly, and the zenith. I also think the community would enjoy seeing some new units, especially if we are getting the new planets in v7.

Before making this issue, place an X in the boxes below to confirm that you have acknowledged them. Failure to do so may result in your request being closed automatically.

1. • [X] I have done a quick search in the list of suggestions to make sure this has not been suggested yet.

(javelin unit has been suggested before but I couldn't find anything as detailed as what im proposing here)

2. • [X] I have checked the Trello to make sure my suggestion isn't planned or implemented in a development version.
3. • [X] I am familiar with all the content already in the game or have glanced at the wiki to make sure my suggestion doesn't exist in the game yet.
4. • [X] I have read README.md to make sure my idea is not listed under the "A few things you shouldn't suggest" category.

[Spidroxide]

Btw im not sure if "unit overdrive" counts as "fast forward", which is banned on the readme.md. I figured that it probably isnt given that normal overdrive projectors are a feature., however if you disagree then my apologies.

[MrDuck557]

Unit overdrive already exists (minke) and you aren't fast-forwarding the entire game. I think you're fine

[Spidroxide]

Unit overdrive already exists (minke) and you aren't fast-forwarding the entire game. I think you're fine

hold up. minke has overdrive? since when is that a thing and how strong is it?

edit: checked on the unofficial wiki and damn thats powerful. maybe the suggested t4 could afford to be buffed a bit then.

[Kyllingene]

I actually love how well you thought this through. My only concern was the cheapness, but then I realized it took phase fabric, and that makes it fine. It also make phase fabric more of a concern for players, whereas before it would often be left for last, as it is more of a comfort item.

[Spidroxide]

I actually love how well you thought this through. My only concern was the cheapness, but then I realized it took phase fabric, and that makes it fine. It also make phase fabric more of a concern for players, whereas before it would often be left for last, as it is more of a comfort item.

Yeah. I always felt that phase fabric was a bit of a throwaway item honestly. Noone ever really made javelin in the past, and even in v6 phase is only really used to build t4 and 5 reconstructors and the t5 units. It doesnt even have the luxury of surge in turrets that use ammo, and people only really use it for overdrive dome and construction, outside of making units. If the javelin tree was reintroduced in a manner similar to this it would make phase seriously useful since javelin, proboscis, and aegis are all "strength in numbers" types of unit, and I think players would really want to make as many as possible, just like with mono and, in campaign at least, poly.

[ghost]

Cool idea. I also liked the javelin because it was fast. I think it would be cool to have more fast units. The only fast units are core units and flares.

[TheRealIvyX]

even if it was outclasses by trident and glaive

glaive

how was a ship that literally had less dps than dart and required surge alloy to be used able to outclass javelin (or any other v5 mech/ship). also i dont really agree with this since a 99% damage reduction for a t1 would be way too overpowered and anything that deals damage that cannot be healed even if its just a very small amount of damage would be extremely overpowered in any game especially if you can get it with little to no effort by the time you unlock it. aegis would also be overpowered since it would require less phase than a few segments and its literally just a moving segment. minke (a unit far cheaper than tachyon) already has tachyon's ability so tachyon is useless on maps with tar or water tiles and chronos would be extremely overpowered since you could just go near an enemy power node and the enemy would run out of power unless they had several impact reactors unless chronos only used like 300 power in which case chronos would be useless.

if you really need something this op in the game then just make a mod

[Kyllingene]

also i dont really agree with this since a 99% damage reduction for a t1 would be way too overpowered

It cannot deal damage.

and anything that deals damage that cannot be healed even if its just a very small amount of damage would be extremely overpowered in any game especially if you can get it with little to no effort by the time you unlock it

Phase fabric + reconstructor is not "little to no effort"

aegis would also be overpowered since it would require less phase than a few segments and its literally just a moving segment

It is a moving segment, yes, but its turrets are much weaker than segment turrets, and it still takes longer to make a bunch of aegis' than to build a few segments. And even if they are better than segments as they are now, suggest ways to balance it instead of just saying "bad".

minke (a unit far cheaper than tachyon) already has tachyon's ability so tachyon is useless on maps with tar or water tiles

Except for the fact that the tachyon has a much more powerful version, with low health to compensate.

chronos would be extremely overpowered since you could just go near an enemy power node and the enemy would run out of power unless they had several impact reactors unless chronos only used like 300 power in which case chronos would be useless.

Well then, guess you would have to make your power strategically. Oh no! More strategy in a strategy game! Unacceptable!

if you really need something this op in the game then just make a mod

I believe I have successfully shown that this concept is not overpowered, and that if it is in any way, you could easily balance it. Please spend more thought when attacking a well-thought-out idea.

[Spidroxide]

I do just want to point out that you seem rather prejudiced against the idea of any new units right from the getgo, but I will try to explain why I think these units are justified, although undoubtedly you are going to disagree with me on all of these points. So it goes.

how was a ship that literally had less dps than dart and required surge alloy to be used able to outclass javelin (or any other v5 mech/ship).

Sure glaive wasn't the greatest unit. It was really just a mix of everything, decent build and mining speed, better damage than dart, and more tanky with a greater cargo hold. But it was still better than javelin because javelin was specialised for subverting enemy defences and sabotaging deep in enemy lines, and yet its low HP and tracking weapons (did i mention how much i despise tracking weapons?) worked against it in that respect and made it unviable. Also, unless you wanted phase for walls, literally noone made it back in v5, so it was rare that you would even have the materials to build the pad in the first place (unlike glaive where you might have a small surge income to build turrets with).

also i dont really agree with this since a 99% damage reduction for a t1 would be way too overpowered and anything that deals damage that cannot be healed even if its just a very small amount of damage would be extremely overpowered in any game especially if you can get it with little to no effort by the time you unlock it.

99% damage reduction is less OP when you consider that the unit cant actually attack. You could argue that it can still shoot water to boost electric damage, but even if you had an electric weapon the instant the javelin slows down its going to get shot out of the sky by any nearby turret, since the DR only works when flying. Its really only useful for traversing enemy bases, and even then any surge fed turrets or meltdowns (not sure if foreshadow is electric, it might be) will annihilate the units en-route.

Also are you mixing the units up? 99% DR is for the t1. You lose that when you upgrade to proboscis. And sure, permanent damage is worrying, but much less so when you consider that the damage of proboscis is like 5/s. Even with 24 of them, large thorium walls have 3200 hp. 3200/120 is 26. 26 seconds to eat a large thorium wall with 24 t2 units is not that strong. 24 horizons could kill a thorium wall just with crash damage alone. And sure its strong in hoards but a lot of turrets are specifically built to counter hoards. you cant spend 20s deleting one block at a time when you have a spectre shooting at you.

aegis would also be overpowered since it would require less phase than a few segments and its literally just a moving segment.

Not all unit tiers are created equal. Zenith is similar to a swarmer. But does that mean a zenith is as powerful as a swarmer? If aegis counters bullets at about 1/3 the speed that zenith shoots missiles, with about the same hp, then i think it would be pretty balanced. And even if you have a hoard of them your still vulnerable to fuses, fast attacking turrets, and meltdown. Its basically an attack speed check: can you shoot fast enough to counter aegis?

minke (a unit far cheaper than tachyon) already has tachyon's ability so tachyon is useless on maps with tar or water tiles and

I wasnt aware that minke had this power when creating this post, so it could stand to be buffed to the power of a normal overdrive effect. Even so, minkes power is restricted to units that touch it (as far as i can tell), and since its a short duration buff and minke is restricted to liquids, its not very useful. And no you cannot pick up a minke in a mega to get the effect (i tried). So i believe this still has a valid reason to exist, especially since it would affect blocks as well as the units (at least how i envisioned it)

chronos would be extremely overpowered since you could just go near an enemy power node and the enemy would run out of power unless they had several impact reactors unless chronos only used like 300 power in which case chronos would be useless.

Sure. But remember, the HP pool is miniscule. If chronos gets shredded faster from non-overdriven turrets than other t5s get melted from overdrive domed turrets, then its not going to be easy to use. More to the point its not a high range turret, its primarily melee and any melee unit with such a tiny HP pool is going to be highly situational. Oh sure its OP if you can get it actually working, but that's exactly the trick: getting it working.

Any t5 requires a certain kind of playstyle, both to use and to counter. The unit I'm proposing here is even further on the risk reward spectrum than most, and its different. And generally i find diversity to be the most fun and engaging thing in games.

if you really need something this op in the game then just make a mod

I dont really feel like making a mod for mindustry, for several reasons. A) i have already decided that if im going to make a mod for any game, its going to be terraria first. B) i am not especially competent at code just yet, and I definitely feel like I have no place making a mod for the game knowing the level of skill of some players out there (yes ik this is a rather dumb and irrelevant point but its still a factor in why i dont want to). C) if this were a mod then that would mean that it can't really be used anywhere else. And honestly id much rather see these units, or units based off of this in the vanilla game than in any sort of mod. And lastly D) I just dont think this is that OP. Ok the units im suggesting are strong. But thats mainly because there exists no other unit that they are competing with. No other unit has the capability to respond quickly and effectively to fires at any location, even if there is an enemy base in the way. No other unit will actively deconstruct enemy structures left out in the world (yes i aware poly can deconstruct but it doesn't do it automatically, and will only do so on structures that are your team or neutral (ie grey)). No other unit can act as an effective meatshield for teams, and the only other unit that can nullify bullets effectively is oct and its shield (yes i know quasar exists but the shield is weak and its more an offensive unit than a defensive one). No other unit really acts as an overdrive for other units (and if you say that minke can then i want you to try actually using that in any game that isnt based around water and naval units). And no other unit can crash an opponents power grid by leaching, oh say about, 10-30k/s. I believe these units aren't OP for exactly the same reason that the mono tree isn't OP (barring quad which deals way too much damage for a unit that fast). And that's why i think they would fit well into the current game, plus or minus a few balancing changes.

[TheRealIvyX]

I do just want to point out that you seem rather prejudiced against the idea of any new units right from the getgo, but I will try to explain why I think these units are justified, although undoubtedly you are going to disagree with me on all of these points.

tbh i only really dislike suggestions that i dont think are good enough to be in the base game either due to them being overpowered or just uncreative but i guess thats what happens after owning an arras.io server that is highly quality over quantity for over a year

99% damage reduction is less OP when you consider that the unit cant actually attack. You could argue that it can still shoot water to boost electric damage, but even if you had an electric weapon the instant the javelin slows down its going to get shot out of the sky by any nearby turret, since the DR only works when flying. Its really only useful for traversing enemy bases, and even then any surge fed turrets or meltdowns (not sure if foreshadow is electric, it might be) will annihilate the units en-route.

i was assuming that your javelin suggestion kept the lightning ability it had in v5 and its missile launchers (wait did javelin have missile launchers or is my memory hecced up)

Also are you mixing the units up? 99% DR is for the t1. You lose that when you upgrade to proboscis. And sure, permanent damage is worrying, but much less so when you consider that the damage of proboscis is like 5/s. Even with 24 of them, large thorium walls have 3200 hp. 3200/120 is 26. 26 seconds to eat a large thorium wall with 24 t2 units is not that strong. 24 horizons could kill a thorium wall just with crash damage alone. And sure its strong in hoards but a lot of turrets are specifically built to counter hoards. you cant spend 20s deleting one block at a time when you have a spectre shooting at you.

numbered campaign sectors could have proboscises in their waves which wouldnt exactly be very fun to deal with in the earlygame before you even can make t2 units (numbered sector waves are randomly generated the moment you launch to a numbered sector so this could be an issue unless most of the javelin line was unable to spawn in numbered sectors). maybe have proboscis inflict a debuff that makes stuff get healed less by stuff (for example a 20% heal projectile would only heal by like 5% to something affected by the debuff)

I wasnt aware that minke had this power when creating this post, so it could stand to be buffed to the power of a normal overdrive effect. Even so, minkes power is restricted to units that touch it (as far as i can tell), and since its a short duration buff and minke is restricted to liquids, its not very useful. And no you cannot pick up a minke in a mega to get the effect (i tried). So i believe this still has a valid reason to exist, especially since it would affect blocks as well as the units (at least how i envisioned it)

iirc minke's overdrive thing isnt restricted to units that touch it but just units within a small radius of it. also there exists an unused overclock effect in the source code so maybe tachyon could give units in a radius around itself that is slightly smaller than oct's shield the overclock effect

Sure glaive wasn't the greatest unit. It was really just a mix of everything, decent build and mining speed, better damage than dart, and more tanky with a greater cargo hold. But it was still better than javelin because javelin was specialised for subverting enemy defences and sabotaging deep in enemy lines, and yet its low HP and tracking weapons (did i mention how much i despise tracking weapons?) worked against it in that respect and made it unviable. Also, unless you wanted phase for walls, literally noone made it back in v5, so it was rare that you would even have the materials to build the pad in the first place (unlike glaive where you might have a small surge income to build turrets with).

i meant that glaive would be unlikely to win a 1v1 with any other play controlled v5 mech/ship

[itcannotbe]

But what about defenses/unit counters.

A huge chunk of development time spent on units is attributable to gameplay balancing.

You cannot implement a unit without a reasonable way of killing it and dealing with its damage corresponding to its tier and when it is available.

[Kyllingene]

The T1 unit deals no damage and as such it could be considered pointless to kill it. Also, it only gets its resistance at full speed, so a single wave would thwart it. Counter:

The T2 unit has no special defensive capabilities. All it does that could affect time to kill is disabling blocks, but as long as your turrets aren't completely exposed that shouldn't be a problem. Dealing with its damage is easy, as it would mostly attack walls, and a large amount of them would be required to disable a single block. True, slipping some past and targeting some critical infrastructure would be very powerful, the problem being slipping them past. Counter:

The T3 unit is simply a meat shield with mini segments. Laser turrets would work great, but the problem isn't killing it, it is the fact that nearby units would be resistant. Counterable with just plain good defenses.

The T4 unit has low health. Their danger lies solely in their buffs to allies. To defend against them, just use good AA. Counter:

The T5 unit has incredibly low health, so any good defenses should be able to counter these. Again, their danger lies in their buff to nearby allies, not in itself. To defend against power leeching, simply structure your power strategically so that the entire grid would not shut down, and have powerless AA defenses. Counters:

All in all, it seems like the only problem people see with these units is that they make you think more strategically. Remember, even just the T1 requires phase, so these would come somewhat later than most units.

[itcannotbe]

Sounds like a support unit than a offensive unit if that's the case.

[Kyllingene]

Updated with images of possible counters. And yes,

This unit is mainly meant for supply and fire control,

a fast mining speed, a modified parallax turret, and a size 30 cargo hold that can store different types of material.

It will automatically seek out groups of units such as squads... whenever damage is taken by a unit, that damage will be shared equally among all nearby aegis.

This unit is equipped with a small health pool but a very high speed, along with a weak (120% speed) but mobile overdrive projector that also works on units. Like aegis, it will join groups of units to increase their speed and damage output. It can also pick up blocks and units.

This unit has no offensive weapons, is slow, and has a very low HP pool, but carries a weak (170% speed) but mobile overdrive dome that not only works on units

Evidently intended as support units.

[itcannotbe]

So the unit is a mobile miner, a mobile container, a mobile puller, and fast speed to boot.

I think it's too versatile.

[itcannotbe]

Also it is kinda pointless to have separate defenses for each unit specifically counters are supposed to be inclusive of already implemented units/blocks.

[Kyllingene]

I think it's too versatile.

Ok then, what else can you think of for a T2 unit whos T1 requires phase? And explain how a mobile puller brings much.

Also it is kinda pointless to have separate defenses for each unit specifically counters are supposed to be inclusive of already implemented units/blocks.

They were examples. Of course you would integrate them strategically; is building well a problem for you? And for noobs, well, these are late game units; they don't need to worry.

[itcannotbe]

Make it not require phase and be like other reasonable T1 units.

It's T1 for pete's sake. It shouldn't be late game at all.

[Kyllingene]

Ok, so then how do you make it unique without being OP? I think an exclusively late-game tree sounds original and interesting. Lack of variation is the root of all evil. Is there any actual reason to revoke the idea of a late-game tree?

[itcannotbe]

I think you somehow forgot how reconstructors work.

You can't gate a unit via construction requirements on the factory, reconstructors would always use the same materials to upgrade from a lower tier.

[Kyllingene]

I did not. Yes, the original unit would be more expensive than subsequent- but oh wait, you need a T1 to make a T2, and thus you need phase for every T2. So no.

[itcannotbe]

I did not. Yes, the original unit would be more expensive than subsequent- but oh wait, you need a T1 to make a T2, and thus you need phase for every T2. So no.

T1 uses 30 silicon, 15 metaglass, and 5 phase fabric. T2 only needs 40 graphite and 40 silicon and the T1 unit? WOT? T3 only needs 130 silicon 80 titanium 40 metaglass and the T2 unit? WOT WOT? T4 only needs 850 silicon 750 titanium 650 plastanium 5400 cryofluid and the T3 unit? WOT WOT WOT? T5 only needs 1000 silicon 600 plastanium 500 surge alloy 350 phase fabric 43200 cryofluid and the T4 unit? WOT WOT WOT WOT?

[Kyllingene]

So it's a late-game tree that is slightly underpowered (but introduces new strategies) but you can go from T1 to T5 quicker than usual. Problem?

[itcannotbe]

but you can go from T1 to T5 quicker than usual. Problem?

That fact. You literally said the problem.

[Kyllingene]

"Slightly underpowered"

[itcannotbe]

Support unit are underpowered. Before support units.

[itcannotbe]

If the tree is supposedly late game it should be hard to progress the said tree.

[Kyllingene]

Except for the little fact that late game trees have less time to progress. Since this tree is late game but not much better than other units, making it too hard to get would be bad.

[Kyllingene]

I do just want to point out that you seem rather prejudiced against the idea of any new units right from the getgo

[itcannotbe]

Except for the little fact that late game trees have less time to progress. Since this tree is late game but not much better than other units, making it too hard to get would be bad.

I said harder not impossible to get.

[Kyllingene]

Harder could make it impossible, and again,

Since this tree is late game but not much better than other units, making it too hard to get would be bad.

[itcannotbe]

You said that it was "a late game unit" making it available like any late game unit/block would be ideal.

You don't want it to be the unit that can change the tide of the battle for only a few resources.

[Kyllingene]

but not much better than other units

[itcannotbe]

That said unless #2019 , #2020 and #2021 are implemented, I can't see a way to effectively deem the unit, late game, since gating the units with phase and calling it a day is ineffective. You can always just rush phase and upgrade it to T3 no problem.

[Humanoid-X]

Ahh, finally a well thought suggestion. I can see that you are not that kind of people that keep suggesting strange and overpowered units.

[Kyllingene]

I can't see a way to effectively deem the unit, late game, since gating the units with phase and calling it a day is ineffective.

Fair point. It is always possible to rush phase. That is why

but not much better than other units

[Spidroxide]

That said unless #2019 , ~#2020~ and #2021 are implemented, I can't see a way to effectively deem the unit, late game, since gating the units with phase and calling it a day is ineffective. You can always just rush phase and upgrade it to T3 no problem.

Im not exactly sure why rushing t3 is such a problem. Most of the time, youll be rushing your highest tier of unit regardless of what tree it is, unless it happens to be a support unit. In fact i would say that the suggested unit tree has an advantage over others in that respect: just like the mono tree you dont stop making the t1 and t2 just because you have access to the tier three. The units may belong to the same tree but they all have different uses, and so i don't really see why its such a problem to get all three at once. Even if you dont like the idea of getting them all at once, noone says the research tree cant also involve phase for all the units, even if they arent build with them. And in multiplayer you always just rush units anyway.

[itcannotbe]

Did you even read the previous discussion? Rush T3 isn't the problem. Deeming the unit tree a late game one while allowing people to access T3 when you just build T1 without making the player do any additional effort to build T3 compared to the normal tier units is the problem.

2019 is a suggestion that scales production time.

#2020

2021 is a suggestion that scales resource requirements.

Essentially it won't change the simplicity of upgrade units but it would change input requirements and time needed per unit.

Basically it changes this status quo:

T1 uses 30 silicon, 15 metaglass, and 5 phase fabric. T2 only needs 40 graphite and 40 silicon and the T1 unit? WOT? T3 only needs 130 silicon 80 titanium 40 metaglass and the T2 unit? WOT WOT? T4 only needs 850 silicon 750 titanium 650 plastanium 5400 cryofluid and the T3 unit? WOT WOT WOT? T5 only needs 1000 silicon 600 plastanium 500 surge alloy 350 phase fabric 43200 cryofluid and the T4 unit? WOT WOT WOT WOT?

[Spidroxide]

Did you even read the previous discussion? Rush T3 isn't the problem. Deeming the unit tree a late game one while allowing people to access T3 when you just build T1 without making the player do any additional effort to build T3 compared to the normal tier units is the problem.

I dont see why you have it fixed in your head that this is supposed to be a late game tree. I mean, sure, the t1 requires phase, but that doesn't mean its exclusively lategame. Sure phase fabric is a later game resource, but its only included in the recipe for thematicism, and because the original javelin mech pad used it. Additionally its a reason why you might never encounter them on serpulo, where the enemy base technology isnt as advanced, if were talking lore and gameplay mechanics, which means the base game doesnt have to be reworked to accommodate these new units.

You seem to be thinking that, because the units need phase, they are supposed to be more OP than everything else. But this is not what I intended. Really all im trying to do here is create a tree that gives a little more use to phase fabric, but its only the inversion of the flare and mono tree. Javelin is just a better flare with a wave instead of a duo. Proboscis is just a poly that has been redesigned from construction to deconstruction. Aegis is just a zenith the nullifies bullets instead of shooting missiles, and has a mechanic that equals out all the damage between units (similar to how quasar is both a lancer and a force projector). Tachyon is just an overdrive projector for units, and Chronos is just a very fragile oct with an overdrive instead of a force projector and an additional power draining mechanic.

As for the fact that once you research the t1 you can go right up to the t5... does that matter? The units aren't meant to be stronger than their counterparts in the other trees, and mostly this tree is support anyway. Again, mono, poly, mega, they arent really OP because they are meant for one specific thing and that thing is what they do. Javelin is only good for extinguishing fires and transporting items. Proboscis is really only good for a passive income from deconstructing the dead parts of enemy bases. Aegis is really only good when you already have a large hoard of units (eg zenith) and since they will share the damage between them they will be the first units to die when the squad starts failing. Tachyon is only really good for boosting squads and is somewhat of a liability anyway, given its low HP pool. And Chronos is completely reliant on other t5s to even get it close enough to the enemy base to use its abilities (although again it does boost them with overdrive effects). These units aren't meant to be underpowered or overpowered. They are just meant to be unique and fill a previously empty niche.

I don't see what the problem you are having is, you are just saying that its not right to gain access to a whole tree at once. And i cant see why you think this is such a problem.

[THEGAMER-10n]

Did you even read the previous discussion? Rush T3 isn't the problem. Deeming the unit tree a late game one while allowing people to access T3 when you just build T1 without making the player do any additional effort to build T3 compared to the normal tier units is the problem.

2019 is a suggestion that scales production time.

~#2020~

2021 is a suggestion that scales resource requirements.

Essentially it won't change the simplicity of upgrade units but it would change input requirements and time needed per unit.

Basically it changes this status quo:

T1 uses 30 silicon, 15 metaglass, and 5 phase fabric. T2 only needs 40 graphite and 40 silicon and the T1 unit? WOT? T3 only needs 130 silicon 80 titanium 40 metaglass and the T2 unit? WOT WOT? T4 only needs 850 silicon 750 titanium 650 plastanium 5400 cryofluid and the T3 unit? WOT WOT WOT? T5 only needs 1000 silicon 600 plastanium 500 surge alloy 350 phase fabric 43200 cryofluid and the T4 unit? WOT WOT WOT WOT?

Ok, the purpose of the phase fab would be to stop players from rushing to early in campaign and more importantly, multiplayer. These units are meant to be versatile, acting both as attack and mostly support(yet it gets more and more on support the higher the tier goes). In early game, a swarm of T1's(mainly javelins for distraction and a meat shield for other units and some flares for the damage) against an enemy that is still on titanium would be easily destroyed. AND THAT IS ONLY THE T1's... By the point that your team has phase fabric, It would mean that both teams should probably be on thorium already, giving BOTH TEAMS more ways to counter the tree(specifically a fuse wall fed with at least titanium to delete the swarm. The tree have barely any health and fuses has pierce.). Campaign won't be a problem since phase needs to be unlocked after getting thorium.

[Kyllingene]

In early game, a swarm of T1's against an enemy that is still on titanium would be easily destroyed.

The T1 doesn't even do damage...

But yes, you get the idea.

[THEGAMER-10n]

The T1 doesn't even do damage...

Sorry... made the correction, I meant all classes.

[THEGAMER-10n]

I think these units will make both attack and defense more strategical. Since(for what I think) other units would be the best defense against this fast units.

[Bohaska]

I think that a proof-of-concept mod should be made first, and then be added into the base game.

[Kyllingene]

Beta release:

[Bohaska]

Suggestion: All stuff in a 12 block radius around Tachyon would be "unoverdrived" i.e. effect from overdrive blocks would be canceled out.

[OnyxFinger]

I like your ideas, however there are issues : Javein is just broken, as much as it can be : when logic is used, aircraft goes at max speed right oof the bat, so you can make it go back and forth and get invicibilty (since it has 99%damage reduction) and shield units Proboscis is also broken, if what you say is to be added, the damage dealt by them won't be healable, and that hurts a lot in survival and attack. Aegis are cool, I'm ok with these tbh Tachyons looks like they're gonna be underpoawered when you can get your first T4s, then broken way in the late game (because of the overdriving effect) For tachyon and chronos, if the overdrives take power, the it's probably gonna be an ammo thing : if ammo is turned off (which it is most of the time since ammo is such a pain), it will probably not work, and you'll get overdrives that don't need power. Aegis is the only unit I am looking forward to right now, the route can overall be good, but it will need new mechanics to make it less broken and more thinking.

[theBrainIQ]

If the tree is supposedly late game it should be hard to progress the said tree.

Don't late game units cost what it takes to build them? Why not just have the research also require phase to help balance this out?

[Kyllingene]

I like your ideas, however there are issues : Javein is just broken, as much as it can be : when logic is used, aircraft goes at max speed right oof the bat, so you can make it go back and forth and get invicibilty (since it has 99%damage reduction) and shield units

No, because anyone with half a brain can use waves strategically to slow them down enough to shoot them.

Proboscis is also broken, if what you say is to be added, the damage dealt by them won't be healable, and that hurts a lot in survival and attack.

They deal low damage and only target undefended blocks. So, the solution? Defend your stuff. Also, it's only unable to be healed if it is actively being attacked by a proboscis.

Tachyons looks like they're gonna be underpoawered when you can get your first T4s, then broken way in the late game (because of the overdriving effect)

But because of their low health, you just throw some good AA at it and it melts. Personally, doesn't seem overly hard to counter.

For tachyon and chronos, if the overdrives take power, the it's probably gonna be an ammo thing : if ammo is turned off (which it is most of the time since ammo is such a pain), it will probably not work, and you'll get overdrives that don't need power.

True, they will need large amounts of materials. However, even if that is a viable concern for the tachyon, it is not for the chronos, as the entire point of that unit is that it takes large amounts of power from any nearby energy grid to power the dome is has. If you are truly worried about the overdrive capabilities of the tachyon, exchange them for this.

[theBrainIQ]

Suggestion: All stuff in a 12 block radius around Tachyon would be "unoverdrived" i.e. effect from overdrive blocks would be canceled out.

Only enemy ones right?